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elite programs
#11
(05-10-2019, 01:40 AM)Guest Wrote:
(05-09-2019, 10:34 PM)Guest Wrote:
(05-09-2019, 08:13 PM)Guest Wrote: "elite research": UCSF, MGH, Hopkins, UVA, Pitt, Penn, Duke, Columbia, UW, Mayo, Wash U, U Mich

"elite operative": Rush, Tennessee, Barrow, UF, Ohio State, Carolinas, Jeff, Cleveland Clinic, NYU, USC, Iowa, Wisconsin

Pitt and UW belong in the operative group and belongs in the research group.
Your operative group is nuts. Tennessee, Ohio State, Carolinas, Jeff, Iowa, and Wisconsin are definitely operative, but nowhere near "elite." I would throw in Emory, Miami, Baylor, and UTSW into this category

As someone with either first hand experience, or close to someone with first hand experience, at these programs, I would put the elite operative programs as: Miami, Barrow, Duke, JHU, UVA, Jeff, CC, USC, Emory, UW, Pitt, Wash U, Duke, and Baylor. 

Iowa, Wisco, UF, OSU, Carolinas, NYU, and UTSW (once Batjer slowed down) are nice operative programs but not elite. Tenn and Rush are elite with spine and trauma but not much else. Honorable mentions go to UAB, Mt Sinai, Utah, Case, USF. Between these programs you're splitting hairs, but anything below them compared to the "elite" listed above there's a huge difference.

You said Duke twice and as someone with first hand experience there, their operative skill is hit or miss. Some were good and hungry, others uninterested and it showed when they became Chiefs.
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#12
(05-10-2019, 05:43 PM)Guest Wrote:
(05-09-2019, 08:13 PM)Guest Wrote: "elite research": UCSF, MGH, Hopkins, UVA, Pitt, Penn, Duke, Columbia, UW, Mayo, Wash U, U Mich

"elite operative": Rush, Tennessee, Barrow, UF, Ohio State, Carolinas, Jeff, Cleveland Clinic, NYU, USC, Iowa, Wisconsin

I normally don’t get into these kind of ranking arguments, but how you gonna list “elite operative programs” and not include Emory? ?
Ok Emory resident
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#13
(05-10-2019, 08:03 PM)Guest Wrote:
(05-10-2019, 01:40 AM)Guest Wrote:
(05-09-2019, 10:34 PM)Guest Wrote:
(05-09-2019, 08:13 PM)Guest Wrote: "elite research": UCSF, MGH, Hopkins, UVA, Pitt, Penn, Duke, Columbia, UW, Mayo, Wash U, U Mich

"elite operative": Rush, Tennessee, Barrow, UF, Ohio State, Carolinas, Jeff, Cleveland Clinic, NYU, USC, Iowa, Wisconsin

Pitt and UW belong in the operative group and belongs in the research group.
Your operative group is nuts. Tennessee, Ohio State, Carolinas, Jeff, Iowa, and Wisconsin are definitely operative, but nowhere near "elite." I would throw in Emory, Miami, Baylor, and UTSW into this category

As someone with either first hand experience, or close to someone with first hand experience, at these programs, I would put the elite operative programs as: Miami, Barrow, Duke, JHU, UVA, Jeff, CC, USC, Emory, UW, Pitt, Wash U, Duke, and Baylor. 

Iowa, Wisco, UF, OSU, Carolinas, NYU, and UTSW (once Batjer slowed down) are nice operative programs but not elite. Tenn and Rush are elite with spine and trauma but not much else. Honorable mentions go to UAB, Mt Sinai, Utah, Case, USF. Between these programs you're splitting hairs, but anything below them compared to the "elite" listed above there's a huge difference.

You said Duke twice and as someone with first hand experience there, their operative skill is hit or miss. Some were good and hungry, others uninterested and it showed when they became Chiefs.

Their residents may be more interested in research but their case numbers are top notch regardless
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#14
(05-10-2019, 05:43 PM)Guest Wrote:
(05-09-2019, 08:13 PM)Guest Wrote: "elite research": UCSF, MGH, Hopkins, UVA, Pitt, Penn, Duke, Columbia, UW, Mayo, Wash U, U Mich

"elite operative": Rush, Tennessee, Barrow, UF, Ohio State, Carolinas, Jeff, Cleveland Clinic, NYU, USC, Iowa, Wisconsin

I normally don’t get into these kind of ranking arguments, but how you gonna list “elite operative programs” and not include Emory? ?

Get back to me when Emory has a spine program
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#15
(05-10-2019, 10:10 PM)Guest Wrote:
(05-10-2019, 08:03 PM)Guest Wrote:
(05-10-2019, 01:40 AM)Guest Wrote:
(05-09-2019, 10:34 PM)Guest Wrote:
(05-09-2019, 08:13 PM)Guest Wrote: "elite research": UCSF, MGH, Hopkins, UVA, Pitt, Penn, Duke, Columbia, UW, Mayo, Wash U, U Mich

"elite operative": Rush, Tennessee, Barrow, UF, Ohio State, Carolinas, Jeff, Cleveland Clinic, NYU, USC, Iowa, Wisconsin

Pitt and UW belong in the operative group and belongs in the research group.
Your operative group is nuts. Tennessee, Ohio State, Carolinas, Jeff, Iowa, and Wisconsin are definitely operative, but nowhere near "elite." I would throw in Emory, Miami, Baylor, and UTSW into this category

As someone with either first hand experience, or close to someone with first hand experience, at these programs, I would put the elite operative programs as: Miami, Barrow, Duke, JHU, UVA, Jeff, CC, USC, Emory, UW, Pitt, Wash U, Duke, and Baylor. 

Iowa, Wisco, UF, OSU, Carolinas, NYU, and UTSW (once Batjer slowed down) are nice operative programs but not elite. Tenn and Rush are elite with spine and trauma but not much else. Honorable mentions go to UAB, Mt Sinai, Utah, Case, USF. Between these programs you're splitting hairs, but anything below them compared to the "elite" listed above there's a huge difference.

You said Duke twice and as someone with first hand experience there, their operative skill is hit or miss. Some were good and hungry, others uninterested and it showed when they became Chiefs.

Their residents may be more interested in research but their case numbers are top notch regardless

Yeah still have to disagree. I rotated there and a couple others on the elite operative list and the first thing I noticed is how little operating goes on at Duke. The other thing is that you don’t really get into the OR till 3+. Emory, Miami, UW, USC, UVA, Barrow, etc get you in the OR or try to from 1+. You sound like a medical student
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#16
Operative experience in residency is an on going debate that’s difficult to quantify and judge. Academic productivity can be ranked on h-index and is pretty clear which programs have strong research. We don’t have that with operative experience and skill, I think the milestones are trying to achieve some way to judge operative skill but relies on subjective faculty assessment and is not open for applicants to view and judge. Making the case log numbers available may shed a light on how busy a program is but doesn’t necessarily speak to operative teaching, independence or skill.

These current “elite” or “top tier” lists may reflect some truth but it seems it mostly relies on your experiences as a sub-i, or what you’ve heard from your friends at other programs.

Any ideas on how we can objectively discuss operative experience? When you did your first skin to skin shunt? Number of first starts? Total case numbers at the end of residency? Number of aneurysms ruptured?
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#17
It's very hard because so much is subjective. I did my first skin to skin the second day of residency. It was a battery change. The attending did one with me then watched me do one then I was on my own for the rest. Very different than skin to skin on a big tumor or aneurysm obviously. First starts is nice if they print off several weeks worth of actual OR schedules. Otherwise people will pick the biggest day or otherwise round up. I think resident case logs are the only objective data point otherwise. Not perfect data by any means but real data. It doesn't provide the number of residents in the case or a true measure of your involvement. It also doesn't provide any true proof of involvement at all. It is also not very accurate. For example a Burr hole for hygroma, a hemicraniectomy, and a incision and drainage for removal of mesh can all be logged in the same category. Some people will argue that they don't log everything, but residencies are judged for resident complements based on it so many programs really push you to do it. If nothing else if your programs residents are only logging the minimum they are likely not going to be expanding their resident complement regardless of the reason why
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#18
(05-11-2019, 07:04 AM)Guest Wrote:
(05-10-2019, 05:43 PM)Guest Wrote:
(05-09-2019, 08:13 PM)Guest Wrote: "elite research": UCSF, MGH, Hopkins, UVA, Pitt, Penn, Duke, Columbia, UW, Mayo, Wash U, U Mich

"elite operative": Rush, Tennessee, Barrow, UF, Ohio State, Carolinas, Jeff, Cleveland Clinic, NYU, USC, Iowa, Wisconsin

I normally don’t get into these kind of ranking arguments, but how you gonna list “elite operative programs” and not include Emory? ?

Get back to me when Emory has a spine program

its pretty sad. they gave all the spine to ortho.
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