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Unaccredited Fellowship vs Other Residency
#11
so if you do a fellowship and do cases and take call competently, that shows success. why wouldn’t they want to take someone proven in a clinical setting versus an unknown med student? If they were willing to hire them and competent to cover the call and cases in an unaccredited fashion then it makes no sense why they wouldn’t use them in an official residency spot. people have hiccups in life but if you can prove yourself that’s a lot of worth.

Hell I see prelim gen surgery residents that way out perform categorical gen surgery residents at my hospital and probably because they are putting in extra effort both in and out of the hospital. They want the job more and if I was in charge I would hire someone with a drive and want then someone who is complacent and lazy in residency.
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#12
(06-01-2020, 12:31 AM)Guest Wrote: so if you do a fellowship and do cases and take call competently, that shows success.  why wouldn’t they want to take someone proven in a clinical setting versus an unknown med student?  If they were willing to hire them and competent to cover the call and cases in an unaccredited fashion then it makes no sense why they wouldn’t use them in an official residency spot.  people have hiccups in life but if you can prove yourself that’s a lot of worth.

Hell I see prelim gen surgery residents that way out perform categorical gen surgery residents at my hospital and probably because they are putting in extra effort both in and out of the hospital.  They want the job more and if I was in charge I would hire someone with a drive and want then someone who is complacent and lazy in residency.

A lot of reasons. First, people who get fired from residency generally (despite what they might think) don't all of a sudden become clinical superstars who wow the department. If a program went through the trouble of building a case against you and losing manpower to get rid of you, you clearly aren't someone who brings a lot of value to the table. Second, residency programs want to recruit the most desirable candidates. This is usually (but not always) US MD seniors who are the best students, easy to get along with, and are vouched for by big name academic neurosurgeons who are good friends with the faculty. Yea, they won't (and shouldn't) know as much as a PGY-4 (even one who was fired) but the PGY-4 didn't know anything when they were a med student either. Superstar applicants are going to catch up to your knowledge base, and they don't have a huge red flag of being fired from a residency program. A lot of mistakes in medicine are career ending (or severely career limiting), that's just the way it is. If you fail a college class or get a DUI, you're going to have a tough time getting into med school, no matter how much you try to prove yourself, simply because there are hundreds of stellar people who they can take without those headaches. If you get expelled from med school, it's career ending - no one will ever take a chance on you again. Just because you can "take call" and do scut work as some random person in an unofficial capacity isn't going to get you very far. Come rank meeting time, everyone is going to take the MD/PhD from a top school who everyone loved, whose chair is calling for them and who's being recruited by a bunch of places.
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#13
You’re failing to see the bigger picture here...you’re damaged goods. Doesn’t matter if you go through that fellowship and perform well. You’re history demonstrates otherwise. You wouldn’t have been terminated if this weren’t the case. Just like how a Med student can pretend during a sub-I, a fellow can suck it up and work their ass off for a year to look good. Who’s to say you won’t relapse or not get along with the people at your new program? It’s just too much of a risk. I’m willing to bet your former PD and chair aren’t going to have glowing reviews of your performance either. As stated previously, this is a small field and people’s reps are at stake so they’re going to be honest in their assessment of you. Any red flags and your application is going into the garbage pile.

Just being brutally honest. If this is the same poster as the other threads, it sounds like you are trying to rationalize why you were let go instead of taking it as a sign that this field may not be for you. It’s unfortunate because it’s possible that if you had started off at a different program, you may not have ended up in this situation to begin with. Either way, you’re fighting an uphill battle trying to get back in the game that will likely only cost you time and energy with very little return. You’d be better off trying to start fresh in a new direction and save yourself the grief. I think there was another poster in the previous thread who had been through multiple “fellowships” and still hadn’t managed to make their way back. You don’t want to find yourself in a position where you throw away 3-4 years of your life only to realize you wasted your time when you could’ve finished another residency during that time.

If you’re spending this much time arguing on an Internet forum though, it seems like you’ve already made your mind up about pursuing one of these fellowships. All I can say is best of luck.
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#14
Pre-Residency Fellowships


Why do they even exist?
- For the program: cheap labor (1 resident = 3-4 midlevels)
- For the fellow: ?

If the majority of people in these programs don't match, then why do people do them?
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#15
(06-01-2020, 02:02 AM)Guest Wrote: Pre-Residency Fellowships


Why do they even exist?
- For the program: cheap labor (1 resident = 3-4 midlevels)
- For the fellow: ?

If the majority of people in these programs don't match, then why do people do them?

Obviously for the program.

They're done by IMGs who are usually very strong (260+, tons of papers), desperate, and who have no other way of securing US letters of rec to apply for the match.
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#16
(06-01-2020, 02:22 AM)Guest Wrote:
(06-01-2020, 02:02 AM)Guest Wrote: Pre-Residency Fellowships


Why do they even exist?
- For the program: cheap labor (1 resident = 3-4 midlevels)
- For the fellow: ?

If the majority of people in these programs don't match, then why do people do them?

Obviously for the program.

They're done by IMGs who are usually very strong (260+, tons of papers), desperate, and who have no other way of securing US letters of rec to apply for the match.

A few of these fellowships can offer you a coin flip's shot at a residency if you do well... but given your situation I wouldn't take it for granted that they'd hire you. When they match people into neurosurgery they look good and it keeps the fellowship open. If they don't think you have a shot they may not offer you the job.
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#17
I have spent a long time speaking to programs and PDs and can tell you I have gotten nowhere. Programs will interrogate you to find out exactly what happened. They don’t care about anything else. They don’t care about your scores, research, positive experience after, nothing.

And frankly what I have found is they don’t even care what you say about it. They speak to you because it is part of the process, but they make their decision based completely on speaking to your old PD and chair. Your credibility is less than zero. I will be applying to a new speciality this coming match
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#18
Hi, I’m in a similar situation but have the support of the old program, would you mind PMing me some of the places that were atleast interested enough to talk to your old program? I’ve found none that are really even looking. It may not matter but I figure it’s worth another shot if I can find some who will even take the time to talk to my old program.
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#19
they wont even speak to you if you dont have program support, so i did have that 'support.'

"so and so happened, but we support this guy" is support, but it doesnt really help you all that much. they will just ask all the details about the "so and so happened" and not really care about the support

and unfortunately ive been told the places that i spoke to have all filled their positions
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#20
what are the best places that match their own unaccredited fellows?
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