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professionalism
#1
Professionalism

It’s now the hot talk after #medbikini.  It’s cost some residents and attendings their jobs, yet is very subjective.  It seems to be in the eye of the beholder and if you are not liked it is used against you.  If you are liked they defend you.  I know multiple great people who lost their job, for the same “infractions” that others kept their job, and even people with “worse” things got to stay.  If it’s going to be enforced, enforce the rules fairly on everyone.  I respect the many doctors who have done these things below as they are human and still do their jobs, yet it has caused others significant hardship and their jobs.  Why are there rules if only selectively enforced?

- pot smoking neurosurgeon 
- slamming and breaking phones, pagers 
- yelling/anger during consults etc
- making fun of other specialities 
- doing drugs outside of work 
- making gay/racial jokes at work 
- showing up late to work multiple times
- showing up late to work as a chief almost daily
- smoking in the call room with vape pen
- restraining orders on residents by nurse
- having sex with multiple nurses in/outside hospital 
- making threatening comments to other attendings
- making degrading comments to other specialties 
- attendings use of profanity, making fun of residents
- showing up to work after drinking while still drunk to go round
- showing up to work in attire after going out drinking
- resident banned from hospital due to degrading comments to nursing staff
- nurses teaming up on resident due to personal reasons and making it affect their profession
- hippa violations 
- residency interview drunkenness
- fat jokes of patients outside of room
- tinder doctor profiles with body pics
- paying other residents to take their call shifts


My list can go on and on.  

But if we are going to make a move towards becoming a full professional, we need to full enforce the rules.  If people still do the job but get let off as “being human” then what is professionalism.  To me right now I feel it’s a term for “legal protection” and a way to get our people who don’t fit with the culture, or to allow office politics for one person to gain an advantage?

Who here has seen unfairness in unprofessionalism in their workplace?  What have you seen done that people have kept their job but I’m another situation someone lost the job?
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#2
You hit the nail on the head. Professionalism is just a tool people in power use to rid themselves of people they don’t like. Be liked by those in charge and you can get away with quite a lot. I don’t think there is a solution to standardize this due to its subjective nature.

On the topic of #medbikini my unpopular opinion, I fear if twitted could lead the #medmob coming after me is that the paper was fine, questionable methods and unclear definitions but nothing necessitating the article be pulled. Saying provocative poses in a bikini is unprofessional seems reasonable. If these pictures were printed off and left in the patient waiting room, the patients, staff, and faculty would surely be uncomfortable. And that’s how accessible they are to anyone with a phone.
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#3
(07-25-2020, 09:59 AM)Guest Wrote: You hit the nail on the head. Professionalism is just a tool people in power use to rid themselves of people they don’t like. Be liked by those in charge and you can get away with quite a lot. I don’t think there is a solution to standardize this due to its subjective nature.

On the topic of #medbikini my unpopular opinion, I fear if twitted could lead the #medmob coming after me is that the paper was fine, questionable methods and unclear definitions but nothing necessitating the article be pulled. Saying provocative poses in a bikini is unprofessional seems reasonable. If these pictures were printed off and left in the patient waiting room, the patients, staff, and faculty would surely be uncomfortable. And that’s how accessible they are to anyone with a phone.

I think the idea that having pictures of yourself in a bikini on your social media feed is unprofessional is nonsense.  Your argument that if these pictures were printed off and left in a patient waiting room it would make people uncomfortable is flawed for the following reasons:

1.  If pictures such as this were left in a waiting room it would be unprofessional and likely harassing behaviour on the part of the person who printed them and left them there rather than on the part of the person who was the subject of the photos.
2.  If such pictures offend people when being accessed on a phone that is the fault of the person accessing the photos.  
3.  If your argument is that physicians should never be seen wearing a bikini by the public, then logically the conclusion of your argument is that physicians should never be seen on a public beach or swimming pool - a ludicrous proposition.
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#4
Important clarification is that they weren’t noted to be unprofessional for being in a bikini but posing provocatively in undergarments, Halloween costumes, or swimwear/bikini

1. What if those photos were posted publicly by the person in them, so that everyone in the waiting room could see?

2. I don’t thinking being offended is the point. The point is that the pictures would alter a patients perspective of the doc in a potentially negative way

3. The point is you should not post provocative photos of yourself publicly on the internet.
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#5
I think the OP point was that professionalism is subjective and is is mainly used for corporate or reasons to get someone out. I’ve seen many unprofessional things go on, but they stay hush hush or no one really cares because they like the person. It happens everywhere not just neurosurgery. Welcome to life, where money and power will win.
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#6
(07-25-2020, 09:00 AM)neuroblade12 Wrote: Professionalism

It’s now the hot talk after #medbikini.  It’s cost some residents and attendings their jobs, yet is very subjective.  It seems to be in the eye of the beholder and if you are not liked it is used against you.  If you are liked they defend you.  I know multiple great people who lost their job, for the same “infractions” that others kept their job, and even people with “worse” things got to stay.  If it’s going to be enforced, enforce the rules fairly on everyone.  I respect the many doctors who have done these things below as they are human and still do their jobs, yet it has caused others significant hardship and their jobs.  Why are there rules if only selectively enforced?

- pot smoking neurosurgeon 
- slamming and breaking phones, pagers 
- yelling/anger during consults etc
- making fun of other specialities 
- doing drugs outside of work 
- making gay/racial jokes at work 
- showing up late to work multiple times
- showing up late to work as a chief almost daily
- smoking in the call room with vape pen
- restraining orders on residents by nurse
- having sex with multiple nurses in/outside hospital 
- making threatening comments to other attendings
- making degrading comments to other specialties 
- attendings use of profanity, making fun of residents
- showing up to work after drinking while still drunk to go round
- showing up to work in attire after going out drinking
- resident banned from hospital due to degrading comments to nursing staff
- nurses teaming up on resident due to personal reasons and making it affect their profession
- hippa violations 
- residency interview drunkenness
- fat jokes of patients outside of room
- tinder doctor profiles with body pics
- paying other residents to take their call shifts


My list can go on and on.  

But if we are going to make a move towards becoming a full professional, we need to full enforce the rules.  If people still do the job but get let off as “being human” then what is professionalism.  To me right now I feel it’s a term for “legal protection” and a way to get our people who don’t fit with the culture, or to allow office politics for one person to gain an advantage?

Who here has seen unfairness in unprofessionalism in their workplace?  What have you seen done that people have kept their job but I’m another situation someone lost the job?

This seems to be the same poster who's made this point on several threads and is resurrecting it again. Not sure what happened to you, but resurfacing it here isn't going to make it go away. Sorry.

If you're trying to make the point that life is unfair, you're right. What do you want us to do about it on a message board? Go study it, advocate, report on it. Do it in an organized fashion, not in some rambling blog on your own corner of the internet where it'll never gain traction.

The same goes for the faux tweet-activism that people think is going to suddenly change the way patients feel about seeing their doctor online in a bikini. Your car salesman sizes you up from the moment you pull into the dealership. People pick hairstylists based on what his/her hair looks like. You'd never walk into a restaurant if you saw the chef outside picking his nose.

Your social media presence doesn't predict operative success, but to patients who don't have much to go by when deciding who will perform a potentially life-altering procedure on them, your behavior outside the operating room is highly suggestive of your skill inside it. Lawton and Almefty can post or say whatever the hell they want because evidence of their expertise is everywhere you look, but you are not them. It's the same reason your attendings keep harping on about patients only caring about the skin closure.

It's unfair, but if you want it to go away, show people how good you are instead of tweeting about how good you are. Then post whatever the hell you want with impunity. The wheat eventually gets separated from the chaff.
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#7
(07-26-2020, 09:05 PM)Guest Wrote: Important clarification is that they weren’t noted to be unprofessional for being in a bikini but posing provocatively in undergarments, Halloween costumes, or swimwear/bikini

1. What if those photos were posted publicly by the person in them, so that everyone in the waiting room could see?

2. I don’t thinking being offended is the point. The point is that the pictures would alter a patients perspective of the doc in a potentially negative way

3. The point is you should not  post provocative  photos of yourself publicly on the internet.

In reply:

1.  That would be really weird.  I don't know if it would be unprofessional - probably it would be.  Fortunately, that wasn't what was being evaluated in this study.

2.  I don't know many patients whose perspective of a doctor/surgical resident would be affected negatively by a Facebook swimwear photo.  Quite frankly, if a patient wanted to go through a doctor's Facebook to look for swimwear photos and then be offended by them then they should probably be avoided anyway - they're the ones who are going to complain and potentially litigate whatever you do for them.

3.  The point is that a photo in swimwear is not purely by definition "provocative" - such provocation resides in the sexist or prudish standard of the observer.
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#8
(07-27-2020, 10:00 AM)Guest Wrote:
(07-26-2020, 09:05 PM)Guest Wrote: Important clarification is that they weren’t noted to be unprofessional for being in a bikini but posing provocatively in undergarments, Halloween costumes, or swimwear/bikini

1. What if those photos were posted publicly by the person in them, so that everyone in the waiting room could see?

2. I don’t thinking being offended is the point. The point is that the pictures would alter a patients perspective of the doc in a potentially negative way

3. The point is you should not  post provocative  photos of yourself publicly on the internet.

In reply:

1.  That would be really weird.  I don't know if it would be unprofessional - probably it would be.  Fortunately, that wasn't what was being evaluated in this study.

2.  I don't know many patients whose perspective of a doctor/surgical resident would be affected negatively by a Facebook swimwear photo.  Quite frankly, if a patient wanted to go through a doctor's Facebook to look for swimwear photos and then be offended by them then they should probably be avoided anyway - they're the ones who are going to complain and potentially litigate whatever you do for them.

3.  The point is that a photo in swimwear is not purely by definition "provocative" - such provocation resides in the sexist or prudish standard of the observer.
You clearly haven't met many patients.
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#9
Question: do you feel that male residents posting photos of themselves without a shirt, say, lifting weights, is unprofessional in the same way? If not, why not?
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#10
Why would someone with 11 years minimum of post-college training agree to deal with this shit? The same docs that worry about Facebook posts are the same ones that allowed MBAs and RNs to tell us what to do as surgeons while allowing our reimbursement to get cut (4% was the last CMS number I saw). We are the primary revenue generators of the hospital, and need to start acting like it, or we’ll lose more that just the freedom to wear a bikini and post pictures of it.

I personally don’t want to deal with Karens or snowflakes that don’t want to deal with me because of some beach post. They can go somewhere else. If some administrator wants to discuss a salary increase to compensate for an additional provision in my contract, that might be fine too. I don’t deal with extra expectations for free, and I’m surprised some of you will.
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