Enfolded fellowships

[Guest]

Doing cases as a 7 is different than when doing them as a 4. If your interested in complex spine or cranial surgery, enfolded fellowships allow you to complete your training in a shorter period of time, especially if you are interested in multiple subspecialties, e.g., vascular and skull base. External fellowships do give you a wider network of connections and may expose you to different philosophies, but to say enfolded fellowships are pointless is just dumb.

[Guest]

Many programs are moving to elective year in PGY7, I highly doubt enfolded fellowships in PGY7 are looked at the same as done during PGY5.

[Guest]

(02-05-2022, 09:18 PM)Guest Wrote: Doing cases as a 7 is different than when doing them as a 4. If your interested in complex spine or cranial surgery, enfolded fellowships allow you to complete your training in a shorter period of time, especially if you are interested in multiple subspecialties, e.g., vascular and skull base. External fellowships do give you a wider network of connections and may expose you to different philosophies, but to say enfolded fellowships are pointless is just dumb.

Agree. Particularly enfolded endo vascular fellowship where you are exposed to a completely new experience other than residency.

[Guest]

(02-05-2022, 07:46 PM)Guest Wrote: Enfolded fellowship just means you did more of the exact same stuff you were doing during residency with the exact same people. The point of a fellowship is to get another perspective or learn something new. By definition enfolded fellowships are pointless.

That *used to be* the point of a fellowship. Now, most of the time, the point is to check a box for a hiring manager or recruiter. That’s where the value of an enfolded fellowship lies, and why would you turn that down given the choice?

If you want high-powered academics, you still need a real fellowship, and enfolded is of no value there.

[Guest]

I disagree that enfolded fellowships are continuing to “check that box” for recruiters. It is for some, and certainly less desirable jobs, but increasingly recruiters very much know that these enfolded fellowships provide very little training beyond what residency already does, and more and more job postings are specifically stating “post-graduate fellowship” required.

[Guest]

(02-06-2022, 10:13 PM)Guest Wrote: I disagree that enfolded fellowships are continuing to “check that box” for recruiters. It is for some, and certainly less desirable jobs, but increasingly recruiters very much know that these enfolded fellowships provide very little training beyond what residency already does, and more and more job postings are specifically stating “post-graduate fellowship” required.

I just went through the job process myself (it sounds like you did too), and I respectfully disagree. A lot of programs follow the traditional model with 2 years of enfolded research. By moving the chief year up to PGY-6 year, at the end of that year you should have the exact same operative skills you otherwise would have, had you done 2 years of research and then a chief year PGY-7 (if not better because of less time away in the lab). At least at my program, doing the enfolded fellowship as a 7 is night and day compared to doing "spine service" as a junior resident. You're doing the entire case (costos for tumor, complex front/backs, multilevel cervical corpectomy) with minimal attending involvement. This is nothing like a PGY2-4 experience, even with those same attendings, where they're frequently scrubbed in or somewhat involved for the critical portion.

Fortunately for our specialty, the job market is incredible right now. You will not have a problem getting high 6 figures or 7 figures with good volume, even in a lot of desirable metros. I have yet to see a post on AANS career center or practicematch that requires a post-graduate fellowship (except for ortho groups, and even then these are just copy pasted listings from ortho sites which of course require a postgrad spine fellowship). I interviewed at a lot of desirable groups that weren't advertising (including in San Francisco, Boston, desirable parts of Florida) and not once did anyone ever care or mention that I was enfolding my fellowship, including the practice I signed at.

[Guest]

Lol "no problem getting high 6 figures in a desirable metro"

[Guest]

(02-06-2022, 11:00 PM)Guest Wrote: Lol "no problem getting high 6 figures in a desirable metro"

??

[Guest]

(02-06-2022, 10:41 PM)Guest Wrote:

(02-06-2022, 10:13 PM)Guest Wrote: I disagree that enfolded fellowships are continuing to “check that box” for recruiters. It is for some, and certainly less desirable jobs, but increasingly recruiters very much know that these enfolded fellowships provide very little training beyond what residency already does, and more and more job postings are specifically stating “post-graduate fellowship” required.

I just went through the job process myself (it sounds like you did too), and I respectfully disagree. A lot of programs follow the traditional model with 2 years of enfolded research. By moving the chief year up to PGY-6 year, at the end of that year you should have the exact same operative skills you otherwise would have, had you done 2 years of research and then a chief year PGY-7 (if not better because of less time away in the lab). At least at my program, doing the enfolded fellowship as a 7 is night and day compared to doing "spine service" as a junior resident. You're doing the entire case (costos for tumor, complex front/backs, multilevel cervical corpectomy) with minimal attending involvement. This is nothing like a PGY2-4 experience, even with those same attendings, where they're frequently scrubbed in or somewhat involved for the critical portion.

Fortunately for our specialty, the job market is incredible right now. You will not have a problem getting high 6 figures or 7 figures with good volume, even in a lot of desirable metros. I have yet to see a post on AANS career center or practicematch that requires a post-graduate fellowship (except for ortho groups, and even then these are just copy pasted listings from ortho sites which of course require a postgrad spine fellowship). I interviewed at a lot of desirable groups that weren't advertising (including in San Francisco, Boston, desirable parts of Florida) and not once did anyone ever care or mention that I was enfolding my fellowship, including the practice I signed at.

as someone going through the interview process myself, i find this hard to believe.

[Guest]

can u learn 7 figures right after residency?