tryingtomatchman
Unregistered
Hey everyone
Long time lurker here. Rising M4 at low tier US MD school with no home program or department.
You guys don't seem like the types to like BS so i'll cut to the chase. I'm not sure if I should apply this year.
Stats
Step 1: 243
Papers: 4 published, 3 more submitted, 1 in the works
Abstracts, posters, etc: 27 including 1 oral presentation at AANS
M3 grades: all HP except for sat in medicine. no honors
All the research above is in neurosurgery
Salient considerations:
- Absolutely fell in love with neurosurg in M1. Trying to make it happen. Not sure I'd want to do anything else, but I'm above all things a pragmatic person and not going to shoot myself in the foot by trying to swim up a creek without a paddle so to speak.
- My school may limit us to 4 weeks away. Not sure if they'll make an exception yet. But we are allowed 1 away if we're applying to something competitive, such as neurosurgery
- If approved, I'd be doing 1 away rotation at a strong mid-high tier program locally.
- Don't think a research year would be a good fit for me personally or professionally.
- I would apply to every program if i did end up applying
Need advice on the following:
1) if i should actually apply given i come from a no name school with basically an average application at best
2) should i apply to a back up specialty if i do apply?
3) how do you think I would fare in your (collective) experiences?
What is your med school? This wont exactly identify you.
(05-17-2020, 10:41 PM)Guest Wrote: What is your med school? This wont exactly identify you.
Not OP, but would argue this is too personal of a question which won't provide meaningful insight into chances.
(05-17-2020, 10:07 PM)tryingtomatchman Wrote: Hey everyone
Long time lurker here. Rising M4 at low tier US MD school with no home program or department.
You guys don't seem like the types to like BS so i'll cut to the chase. I'm not sure if I should apply this year.
Stats
Step 1: 243
Papers: 4 published, 3 more submitted, 1 in the works
Abstracts, posters, etc: 27 including 1 oral presentation at AANS
M3 grades: all HP except for sat in medicine. no honors
All the research above is in neurosurgery
Salient considerations:
- Absolutely fell in love with neurosurg in M1. Trying to make it happen. Not sure I'd want to do anything else, but I'm above all things a pragmatic person and not going to shoot myself in the foot by trying to swim up a creek without a paddle so to speak.
- My school may limit us to 4 weeks away. Not sure if they'll make an exception yet. But we are allowed 1 away if we're applying to something competitive, such as neurosurgery
- If approved, I'd be doing 1 away rotation at a strong mid-high tier program locally.
- Don't think a research year would be a good fit for me personally or professionally.
- I would apply to every program if i did end up applying
Need advice on the following:
1) if i should actually apply given i come from a no name school with basically an average application at best
2) should i apply to a back up specialty if i do apply?
3) how do you think I would fare in your (collective) experiences?
Your step score will get you past many cutoffs even though it's not terribly high, but your research seems strong. Clinical grades aren't great but that's usually less important. You don't have the fallback that applicants like you typically have, which is a solid relationship at a home program and people who will write good letters and make calls.
First, find a community neurosurgeon if you haven't already and establish some rapport. Go to the OR. Figure out if they know anyone at any programs. Those contacts are key
You need to target your application process carefully if you want to apply this year. Do a lot of research before selecting your away. Find a place where you can realistically match (it won't be UCSF, BNI, MGH, Pitt, UW, etc.) Your best bet is a mid-tier program where you can make an impression in 4 weeks. Make sure it has decently well-known faculty (search this board) and spend some time with them during the rotation.
Kick ass on your away rotation. I mean - kick ASS. Never complain. Work harder than ever. (Figure out why you didn't honor on your surgery rotation and fix it.) If you are going to match, this place is your best shot.
In response to your questions:
1) Sure. It sounds like you understand that you have a higher than average chance of not matching, but there are definitely folks worse off than you are. Your application's success hinges on the intangibles. Work every contact you have without being annoying.
2) This is entirely personal. If you can be happy doing something else, then apply. I personally think taking a prelim year or another specialty with a plan to reapply later is a mistake, you'll never have the time to interview well or build an application.
3) I have seen folks with weaknesses (even those under our Step 1 cutoff) match at our highly regarded program. But it's because they had something else stand out. Killer research, Sub-I performance, or a personal phone call. It's not impossible, but it's an uphill battle.
(05-18-2020, 12:08 AM)Guest Wrote: (05-17-2020, 10:07 PM)tryingtomatchman Wrote: Hey everyone
Long time lurker here. Rising M4 at low tier US MD school with no home program or department.
You guys don't seem like the types to like BS so i'll cut to the chase. I'm not sure if I should apply this year.
Stats
Step 1: 243
Papers: 4 published, 3 more submitted, 1 in the works
Abstracts, posters, etc: 27 including 1 oral presentation at AANS
M3 grades: all HP except for sat in medicine. no honors
All the research above is in neurosurgery
Salient considerations:
- Absolutely fell in love with neurosurg in M1. Trying to make it happen. Not sure I'd want to do anything else, but I'm above all things a pragmatic person and not going to shoot myself in the foot by trying to swim up a creek without a paddle so to speak.
- My school may limit us to 4 weeks away. Not sure if they'll make an exception yet. But we are allowed 1 away if we're applying to something competitive, such as neurosurgery
- If approved, I'd be doing 1 away rotation at a strong mid-high tier program locally.
- Don't think a research year would be a good fit for me personally or professionally.
- I would apply to every program if i did end up applying
Need advice on the following:
1) if i should actually apply given i come from a no name school with basically an average application at best
2) should i apply to a back up specialty if i do apply?
3) how do you think I would fare in your (collective) experiences?
Your step score will get you past many cutoffs even though it's not terribly high, but your research seems strong. Clinical grades aren't great but that's usually less important. You don't have the fallback that applicants like you typically have, which is a solid relationship at a home program and people who will write good letters and make calls.
First, find a community neurosurgeon if you haven't already and establish some rapport. Go to the OR. Figure out if they know anyone at any programs. Those contacts are key
You need to target your application process carefully if you want to apply this year. Do a lot of research before selecting your away. Find a place where you can realistically match (it won't be UCSF, BNI, MGH, Pitt, UW, etc.) Your best bet is a mid-tier program where you can make an impression in 4 weeks. Make sure it has decently well-known faculty (search this board) and spend some time with them during the rotation.
Kick ass on your away rotation. I mean - kick ASS. Never complain. Work harder than ever. (Figure out why you didn't honor on your surgery rotation and fix it.) If you are going to match, this place is your best shot.
In response to your questions:
1) Sure. It sounds like you understand that you have a higher than average chance of not matching, but there are definitely folks worse off than you are. Your application's success hinges on the intangibles. Work every contact you have without being annoying.
2) This is entirely personal. If you can be happy doing something else, then apply. I personally think taking a prelim year or another specialty with a plan to reapply later is a mistake, you'll never have the time to interview well or build an application.
3) I have seen folks with weaknesses (even those under our Step 1 cutoff) match at our highly regarded program. But it's because they had something else stand out. Killer research, Sub-I performance, or a personal phone call. It's not impossible, but it's an uphill battle.
So I think I have to rotate at a program in my state preferably the closest one due to COVID which essentially picks the away for me unless they decide not to accept me for the rotation. But it’s got faculty that I’ve seen mentioned in this forum a good amount with a good reputation from what I’m seeing. My issue with that is they tend to take for lack of a better term better applicants than I, especially in recent years. Do you think crushing this away will still increase chances of matching? I have some connections to a couple programs but they are mostly out of state so I can’t rotate there.
Also thank you for the advice ! Appreciate you taking the time
If you are absolutely set on neurosurgery and in no way would consider any other field, I would recommend you take a year off. You would absolutely benefit from the multitude of away rotations next year to show case your aptitude. There is more than enough evidence that its an up hill battle as the above post stated; you are essentially banking on the local school not taking their own students and also competing against others with below average academics; a good chunk of people on initial screen have a score much greater than >245 national neurosurg average and those students also have a home program. (Our program does not have a Step 1 cut off per say, but 243 is low and senior level residents help the PD with the initial screen). Your research might make a difference, but 4 pubmed index papers is also below average, especially if none of them are first author.
If you have considered the alternatives definitely apply to general surgery or another field as a back up because why take that risk?
Wish you genuinely all the best. I am absolutely empathetic for DO students/IMG/no home program students applying this cycle, because it frankly is a big risk.
Research year at a well-known program is your best bet and apply next year with your neurosurgery research mentor's letter + away letters.
Research year will help professionally especially in the short term, regardless of if you go into academics or not.
(05-18-2020, 11:53 AM)Guest Wrote: Research year at a well-known program is your best bet and apply next year with your neurosurgery research mentor's letter + away letters.
Research year will help professionally especially in the short term, regardless of if you go into academics or not.
Could not disagree more. Really tough to match at a well-known program with a 243, average grades, and no home program. They may like you but that will only get you so far.
Everyone keeps talking about the 243 as if it's done horrendous score which will limit you. Students with much lower scores have matched, even at top institutions. Step 1 scores matter to get an interview, but aren't a deciding factor for most rank lists.
That being said, I agree with the consensus that taking a research year and having the opportunity to do aways and get letters will significantly increase your chances of matching.
Good luck!
(05-18-2020, 12:43 PM)Guest Wrote: (05-18-2020, 11:53 AM)Guest Wrote: Research year at a well-known program is your best bet and apply next year with your neurosurgery research mentor's letter + away letters.
Research year will help professionally especially in the short term, regardless of if you go into academics or not.
Could not disagree more. Really tough to match at a well-known program with a 243, average grades, and no home program. They may like you but that will only get you so far.
Depends on OP's goals. Suggested well-known program for research year because the letter would carry more weight.
OP has decent shot at matching this year but with a research year and good away letters it would be more solidified.
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