For neurosurgeons with kids, how are they faring?

[In Love with a Loli]

What careers do they go into? Colleges? Education attainment? Overall quality of life?

[Guest]

Doctors and surgeons

[Guest]

They are more likely to match into neurosurgery

[Guest]

We have kids doing well and kids not doing well. Kids who are smart, not so smart, happy, unhappy, athletic, not athletic, cis/trans/whatever gender and so on. For every neurosurgeon who has a kid who also goes on to become a successful neurosurgeon (extremely rare), there is another one who has a kid who committed suicide (extremely rare). Some of us have a kid with a disability. Some of us have kids who are geniuses.

Normal families with normal qualities and normal problems.

[In Love with a Loli]

(05-29-2021, 11:01 AM)Guest Wrote: We have kids doing well and kids not doing well. Kids who are smart, not so smart, happy, unhappy, athletic, not athletic, cis/trans/whatever gender and so on. For every neurosurgeon who has a kid who also goes on to become a successful neurosurgeon (extremely rare), there is another one who has a kid who committed suicide (extremely rare). Some of us have a kid with a disability. Some of us have kids who are geniuses.

Normal families with normal qualities and normal problems.

Interesting. I would expect kids to do better than average. Most of the academic physicians I know have kids who are disproportionately successful. Most South Asian doctors have rather successful kids, I have noticed.

[Guest]

They certainly do much better than the US average, on par with other doctors, dentists and attorneys. But while success stories are well publicized, the failures are quietly swept under the rug. Two of our attendings have kids dealing with substance use problems. Two others have kids who are doctors. One other attending has a kid with a severe psychiatric problem. Another one has a daughter who is an all-American track athlete.

It is important to set expectations straight because people still have a very biased view of neurosurgeons. We are normal people, very intelligent, usually hard-working and successful, but normal. Academia could also help by mandating a minimum wellness curriculum with topics such as personal and family wellness but also financial planning, medical malpractice, contract negotiations and etc. Instead we still focus on brain slices and obscure brainstem nuclei.

Joe Maroon has a phenomenal talk available on Youtube that provides a much more realistic view into the personal and family life of a neurosurgeon. It should be mandatory for anybody going into this field.

[Guest]

(05-30-2021, 11:46 AM)Guest Wrote: They certainly do much better than the US average, on par with other doctors, dentists and attorneys. But while success stories are well publicized, the failures are quietly swept under the rug. Two of our attendings have kids dealing with substance use problems. Two others have kids who are doctors. One other attending has a kid with a severe psychiatric problem. Another one has a daughter who is an all-American track athlete.

It is important to set expectations straight because people still have a very biased view of neurosurgeons. We are normal people, very intelligent, usually hard-working and successful, but normal. Academia could also help by mandating a minimum wellness curriculum with topics such as personal and family wellness but also financial planning, medical malpractice, contract negotiations and etc. Instead we still focus on brain slices and obscure brainstem nuclei.

Joe Maroon has a phenomenal talk available on Youtube that provides a much more realistic view into the personal and family life of a neurosurgeon. It should be mandatory for anybody going into this field.

Is this his CNS presidential address? Cant seem to find it on YouTube.

[Guest]

(05-30-2021, 11:46 AM)Guest Wrote: They certainly do much better than the US average, on par with other doctors, dentists and attorneys. But while success stories are well publicized, the failures are quietly swept under the rug. Two of our attendings have kids dealing with substance use problems. Two others have kids who are doctors. One other attending has a kid with a severe psychiatric problem. Another one has a daughter who is an all-American track athlete.

It is important to set expectations straight because people still have a very biased view of neurosurgeons. We are normal people, very intelligent, usually hard-working and successful, but normal. Academia could also help by mandating a minimum wellness curriculum with topics such as personal and family wellness but also financial planning, medical malpractice, contract negotiations and etc. Instead we still focus on brain slices and obscure brainstem nuclei.

Joe Maroon has a phenomenal talk available on Youtube that provides a much more realistic view into the personal and family life of a neurosurgeon. It should be mandatory for anybody going into this field.

The only wellness program we need does not consist of lectures or videos, but of a more humane schedule so we can spend time with our children.

[Guest]

If you’re not willing to make significant personal sacrifices, just don’t do neurosurgery. There are plenty of specialities where you can help people, and even do surgery, and have a less demanding schedule. Setting aside the fact that residents are probably only pushing 90-100 hours/week for the first few years of training (I.e., suck it up), neurosurgery demands sacrifice because it takes a lot of commitment to be a good neurosurgeon. The same trainees complaining about lifestyle are unlikely to put in any extra work during their training and end up being surgeons who duck challenging or inconvenient cases and generally don’t do right by patients, all in the name of “wellness” and “avoiding burnout.” In short, if you’re looking for a 9-5 gig, please do something else.

[Guest]

(05-31-2021, 07:23 PM)Guest Wrote: If you’re not willing to make significant personal sacrifices, just don’t do neurosurgery. There are plenty of specialities where you can help people, and even do surgery, and have a less demanding schedule. Setting aside the fact that residents are probably only pushing 90-100 hours/week for the first few years of training (I.e., suck it up), neurosurgery demands sacrifice because it takes a lot of commitment to be a good neurosurgeon. The same trainees complaining about lifestyle are unlikely to put in any extra work during their training and end up being surgeons who duck challenging or inconvenient cases and generally don’t do right by patients, all in the name of “wellness” and “avoiding burnout.” In short, if you’re looking for a 9-5 gig, please do something else.

lol at this standard "grizzled neurosurgeon" response

there is a vast difference between a "looking for a 9-5 gig" and designing a practice that allows you to do other things that are important to you, family or otherwise. 

conflating "caring about something other than work" with "complaining about lifestyle" is just lazy and ignorant of reality. the world needs some crazy surgeons who will spend their free time innovating, studying, and teaching. but it needs a hell of a lot more of surgeons who may not be crazy, but are committed and competent. by telling anyone who mentioned ANYTHING about "lifestyle" that they should "do something else", you're turning away people who could do excellent work for patients.

many of my colleagues have robust family lives. their partners and kids understand why they don't see them as much as they'd like. but the good ones make every minute with their families count.