Diversity

[Focus]

(08-25-2021, 05:54 PM)Harvard / Yale Neurosurgeon Wrote:

(08-24-2021, 07:30 PM)Focus Wrote:

(08-23-2021, 06:46 PM)Harvard / Yale Neurosurgery Wrote:

(08-23-2021, 05:58 PM)Focus Wrote:

(08-22-2021, 06:37 PM)Harvard / Yale Neurosurgeon Wrote: Serious question. Can't you just lie about race? I've seen white applicants call themselves Hispanic, and South Asian applicants list themselves as Black. This is for medical school. But does residency work the same way? 

What do PDs do? As I understand, it is purely self-identification, so from a legal perspective, a PD can't do anything. 

Thank you.

You can lie about race, but there's no quota based on self-reportation in neurosurgery. If you write african american and your heritage is white South African, not going to help you. Your race will be judged in person.

Thanks for this reply, and for not deleting this thread. While what you say may be technically true, it seems like many researchers are paying attention to the race of applicants. 

For example:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33684577/

https://thejns.org/focus/view/journals/n...le-pE6.xml

So I suspect that PD's would want to increase number of blacks/Hispanics/Females if only to look good on paper. I know that is the case for medical school and college admissions. So wouldn't lying be beneficial, if only so that the PD can put "black" on some survey? 

Thank you again.

Nah. Your pictures are on the webpage and your faces are at the interview day. If a truly under-represented person looks up some program and its a bunch of people that don't reflect their background, not going to convince. There are so many more important factors than what someone puts on ERAS as their ethnicity. For example, someone who does that unethically to try to get a boost may not be the personality type you are searching for.

But often you cannot tell. for example, our VP right now looks like an Indian, imo. But she is considered Black when applying for law school/jobs, etc. So what if that is the case? For example I know a number of South Asians with American names (first/last) who look black, and who list themselves as AA or part AA. I know it helps for med school admissions but I am not really familiar with residency. 

Also, you cannot ask race/ethnic related questions so its really hard to prove incorrect.

I think we're splitting hairs. The theoretical Indian applicant who lists AA (if we even read it) but also lists that they speak Hindi fluently and are the former 2018 world Bhangra champion isn't fooling anyone. Don't lie. If you choose to lie, don't be sad if you get busted in the long game. Integrity is the only resource a PGY1 resident brings to the table. The personality type that is lying about their identity is not healthy. They're probably the same ones who get fired as a PGY4 for chronic lying.

[Guest]

What can a pgy-4 who left do to get back in?

[Guest]

Depends on why you got fired (or let go), and don't say "politics". Your program and/or your institution can't write "politics" in their reasoning sent to the ACGME otherwise they risk significant consequences. If the reasons would scare future PDs and Chairs, your chances are slim. And PDs do talk to each other.

[Harvard / Yale Neurosurgeon]

(08-26-2021, 10:31 AM)Focus Wrote: I think we're splitting hairs. The theoretical Indian applicant who lists AA (if we even read it) but also lists that they speak Hindi fluently and are the former 2018 world Bhangra champion isn't fooling anyone. Don't lie. If you choose to lie, don't be sad if you get busted in the long game. Integrity is the only resource a PGY1 resident brings to the table. The personality type that is lying about their identity is not healthy. They're probably the same ones who get fired as a PGY4 for chronic lying.

I'm not applying to residency programs, but I want to learn more about this process to help my son out. now the example you give is just absurd because anyone with a brain will not mention they speak Hindi and participate in Indian activities. They would be far more discrete, such as join social justice clubs in med school, URM-related clubs, etc. 

If you look at some top residency programs, they all seem to have a black Psy 1 or 2. MGH seems to go out of its way to get a black, so does Baylor, Yale, etc. So obviously they are actively searching for blacks and I have overheard a number of PDs speak openly about wanting diverse people. So obviously, your ethnicity matters a lot. 

Nothing wrong with gaming a broken system.

[Guest]

"..... to get a black...."
"....wanted a girl...."

Wtf is wrong with you people. Applicants are human beings, not a pokemon you collect. There are undeniable race and gender issues underlying all of medicine, from wage equality to standardized testing to subconscious bias with research and referrals. The first step to optimizing the *merit* of our community is to acknowledge this problem, and that is literally what AANS is trying to do. Don't underestimate the skills a person can bring to the table just because they have two X chromosomes or darker skin - neurosurgery is more than textbook intelligence and having superior social connections. Maybe the black female gymnast who applies has more grit and physical stamina than you could ever imagine and it contributes to her being a rising star in spine? Maybe the transgender hispanic female who sewed her own clothes her whole life to feel more aligned with her gender identity has thus developed remarkable manual dexterity that lends itself well to skull base surgery? Get your heads out of your asses. A trustfund upbringing, a doctor daddy, a penis, and white skin do not automatically make you a superior neurosurgeon.

[Guest]

Life is unfair. Suck it up.

There are politics in medicine and especially neurosurgery. I have seen favoritism a lot, especially to shitty applicants and residents. I have seen stellar people not get in. You ever notice some match years have majority or all women, Im sure that on purpose. Notice how neurosurgeons son gets in though may not have best stats. Notice how ex- pro athletes get in but supposedly may not have the best board scores.

[Guest]

i am a shot ugly balding indian, and my application will get overlooked because a 6'5'' black is applying, even through the black had a priviliged lifestyle and got all the girls. i see all my black classmates fuck girl after girl and i am still a dumb ugly virgin and it makes me so angry and frustrated.

not to worry, i will get into a residency and will work to abolism affirmative action, and vote republican to abolish affirmative aciton. and then i will get a beautiful blonde wife and produce tall mixed babies who i will turn into surgeons as well. hahah affirmative aciton blacks.

[Guest]

Please keep this forum collegial. Patients and their families may pop onto this via searching their surgeons name, please be respectful.

[Harvard / Yale Neurosurgeon]

(08-27-2021, 07:34 PM)Guest Wrote: Please keep this forum collegial.  Patients and their families may pop onto this via searching their surgeons name, please be respectful.

Things are getting bad out their for med students. Massive increase in DO schools with no increase in residency spots, massive increase in midlevel graduates, massive increase in scope of practice for midlevels ... grads are competing for a few spots. usmle pass/fail means more corruption for the few small spots. 

things are getting bad and emotions are flying high.

[Focus]

(08-26-2021, 03:56 PM)Harvard / Yale Neurosurgeon Wrote:

(08-26-2021, 10:31 AM)Focus Wrote: I think we're splitting hairs. The theoretical Indian applicant who lists AA (if we even read it) but also lists that they speak Hindi fluently and are the former 2018 world Bhangra champion isn't fooling anyone. Don't lie. If you choose to lie, don't be sad if you get busted in the long game. Integrity is the only resource a PGY1 resident brings to the table. The personality type that is lying about their identity is not healthy. They're probably the same ones who get fired as a PGY4 for chronic lying.

I'm not applying to residency programs, but I want to learn more about this process to help my son out. now the example you give is just absurd because anyone with a brain will not mention they speak Hindi and participate in Indian activities. They would be far more discrete, such as join social justice clubs in med school, URM-related clubs, etc. 

If you look at some top residency programs, they all seem to have a black Psy 1 or 2. MGH seems to go out of its way to get a black, so does Baylor, Yale, etc. So obviously they are actively searching for blacks and I have overheard a number of PDs speak openly about wanting diverse people. So obviously, your ethnicity matters a lot. 

Nothing wrong with gaming a broken system.

Yes there is something wrong with gaming a broken system when it involves dishonesty, but my advice is just advice. Use or disregard it as you see fit. Those applicants are ACTUALLY black. Seems to me all that effort falsifying your identity could be easily converted to mad pubs instead. As someone who has been in admissions for a number of years, if I catch an applicant lying about pubs (which I have, probably much more common than lying about URM status), ethnicity, or whatever, I will not only ensure that they don't match at my program, but will also notify their home program and medical school of academic dishonesty. Lies are much harder to keep straight than the truth. Eventually you slip up.