I Am so confused about what I want. going into this process thought I wanted a very operative program so that I could learn how to be a good surgeon, but I’ve always wanted to go to academics. I have noticed on my interviews that many of the younger star faculty at really good programs have graduated from very academic programs that are known to be a little less operative.
How does a program with a really good academic reputation (Columbia for example) compare to a more operative program - but still prestigious - (let’s just say BNI for example) in setting you up for an academic career? And by academic career I don’t just mean a position as faculty, but rather, future chair? And how much is the operative experience compromised at a program that is so much more academic than operative? Can this be compensated by fellowship?
Honest opinions much appreciated.
(01-23-2022, 03:49 AM)Guest Wrote: I Am so confused about what I want. going into this process thought I wanted a very operative program so that I could learn how to be a good surgeon, but I’ve always wanted to go to academics. I have noticed on my interviews that many of the younger star faculty at really good programs have graduated from very academic programs that are known to be a little less operative.
How does a program with a really good academic reputation (Columbia for example) compare to a more operative program - but still prestigious - (let’s just say BNI for example) in setting you up for an academic career? And by academic career I don’t just mean a position as faculty, but rather, future chair? And how much is the operative experience compromised at a program that is so much more academic than operative? Can this be compensated by fellowship?
Honest opinions much appreciated.
Ppl on this website like to perpetuate a myth that you can only become good at operating if you train at Mayo, BNI, or a mediocre program in a 3rd rate city. The reality is you can learn to be a great surgeon almost anywhere if you work hard and you’re diligent. There are, however, only a select group of programs that produce most chairmen (Mayo, MGH, Columbia, Hopkins, WashU, Michigan, BWH, UCSF) (Source). This isn’t surprising if you look at where their grads end up within the first 1-3 years of their career. The reality is that you need to be able to operate and do research if you want to be a chairman. The days of Lawton-like operative-marvels as chairmen are largely over and while you can learn to operate almost anywhere, you cannot do future-chairman level research and network with the top players in the field at most programs.
Now if you were interested in private practice, that’d be a different story, but since you’re interested in academics and future chairmanship, this is just the truth that you won’t often see on this site. Scroll through the alumni lists from the programs above and see for yourself.
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(01-23-2022, 10:50 AM)Guest Wrote: (01-23-2022, 03:49 AM)Guest Wrote: I Am so confused about what I want. going into this process thought I wanted a very operative program so that I could learn how to be a good surgeon, but I’ve always wanted to go to academics. I have noticed on my interviews that many of the younger star faculty at really good programs have graduated from very academic programs that are known to be a little less operative.
How does a program with a really good academic reputation (Columbia for example) compare to a more operative program - but still prestigious - (let’s just say BNI for example) in setting you up for an academic career? And by academic career I don’t just mean a position as faculty, but rather, future chair? And how much is the operative experience compromised at a program that is so much more academic than operative? Can this be compensated by fellowship?
Honest opinions much appreciated.
Ppl on this website like to perpetuate a myth that you can only become good at operating if you train at Mayo, BNI, or a mediocre program in a 3rd rate city. The reality is you can learn to be a great surgeon almost anywhere if you work hard and you’re diligent. There are, however, only a select group of programs that produce most chairmen (Mayo, MGH, Columbia, Hopkins, WashU, Michigan, BWH, UCSF) (Source). This isn’t surprising if you look at where their grads end up within the first 1-3 years of their career. The reality is that you need to be able to operate and do research if you want to be a chairman. The days of Lawton-like operative-marvels as chairmen are largely over and while you can learn to operate almost anywhere, you cannot do future-chairman level research and network with the top players in the field at most programs.
Now if you were interested in private practice, that’d be a different story, but since you’re interested in academics and future chairmanship, this is just the truth that you won’t often see on this site. Scroll through the alumni lists from the programs above and see for yourself.
That's an interesting paper, but I would be interested in knowing where the chair appointments over the last 20 years have been since almost half of those chairs listed in the above paper were the product of Cushing. A paper that more closely hits the mark is a review of 2016 chairmen/women. Unfortunately I only see the top three producers listed ([color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Massachusetts General Hospital (n = 8, 8%), University of California, San Francisco (n = 8, 8%), and University of Michigan (n = 6, 6%)). The one thing we can conclude from this is perhaps the dominance of just 2-3 programs in terms of chairmaking as waned, since the top three only account for about a quarter of active chairs. [/color]
A cross-sectional study of neurosurgical department chairs in the United States in: Journal of Neurosurgery Volume 129 Issue 5 (2018) Journals (thejns.org)
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The reality is that you're trying to hit a moving target with this type of discussion. When you are looking at people who are currently leaders in the field and track where they did residency, you're already using a lagging indicator. UVA was the "program of chairmen" a long time ago. It's not the same place, but looking at how many chairmen or PDs or big names have come out of there will not reflect the current state. Seven years is a long time at a place and the character of it can change significantly. Neurosurgery departments are small. Even at larger programs, the loss of a couple of important faculty can have a huge impact.
A comically large number of people want to hear that "you matched in X program, you're set". If you rely on that you're going to have a bad time. If your marker for a successful career is chairman or bust, re-evaluate what your goals are.
I will also say that these lists that continually circulate here never correlate with what the senior faculty I know say are the "top programs". None of the medical students on this board want to hear what those places are. They just want to talk about the same 5-10 places.
(01-23-2022, 04:02 PM)drstrange Wrote: The reality is that you're trying to hit a moving target with this type of discussion. When you are looking at people who are currently leaders in the field and track where they did residency, you're already using a lagging indicator. UVA was the "program of chairmen" a long time ago. It's not the same place, but looking at how many chairmen or PDs or big names have come out of there will not reflect the current state. Seven years is a long time at a place and the character of it can change significantly. Neurosurgery departments are small. Even at larger programs, the loss of a couple of important faculty can have a huge impact.
A comically large number of people want to hear that "you matched in X program, you're set". If you rely on that you're going to have a bad time. If your marker for a successful career is chairman or bust, re-evaluate what your goals are.
I will also say that these lists that continually circulate here never correlate with what the senior faculty I know say are the "top programs". None of the medical students on this board want to hear what those places are. They just want to talk about the same 5-10 places.
If you don't mind me asking, what are the top places that senior faculty recommend? I only know the top places from this forum, and then putting together information from Doximiety and US news and publication authors. What places to the senior faculty recommend?
Thank you
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Off the cuff - Maryland is a great place with a good track record. USC gets some love, but not as much as some of the other "name brand" places everyone obsesses over. Utah gets after it. Iowa and University of Florida. Like the Pacific northwest but don't want to live in Seattle? OHSU. None of those places would shock anyone - but a lot of med students just ignore them since they might not be as flashy. How often do they get listed in "top 10 flavor of the month" posts?
Look at places with a past Cushing award winner for chair or PD. Everyone knows Jim Rutka and Art Day know how to train people. But does anyone talk about their programs? No. Because Toronto is north of the border and everyone ignores UTH for BCM.
Go to any one of these places and you can be set up if you work hard.
(01-23-2022, 07:55 PM)drstrange Wrote: Off the cuff - Maryland is a great place with a good track record. USC gets some love, but not as much as some of the other "name brand" places everyone obsesses over. Utah gets after it. Iowa and University of Florida. Like the Pacific northwest but don't want to live in Seattle? OHSU. None of those places would shock anyone - but a lot of med students just ignore them since they might not be as flashy. How often do they get listed in "top 10 flavor of the month" posts?
Look at places with a past Cushing award winner for chair or PD. Everyone knows Jim Rutka and Art Day know how to train people. But does anyone talk about their programs? No. Because Toronto is north of the border and everyone ignores UTH for BCM.
Go to any one of these places and you can be set up if you work hard.
Thanks a lot for that information. Honestly, from browsing this site and the other places, I would have never thought of those places. Problem is, we have only a certain amount of resources so I just go with that, but it can be hard to tell without any insider knowledge. Thank you again
Utah looks great. I know they have good people too.
(01-23-2022, 07:55 PM)drstrange Wrote: Off the cuff - Maryland is a great place with a good track record. USC gets some love, but not as much as some of the other "name brand" places everyone obsesses over. Utah gets after it. Iowa and University of Florida. Like the Pacific northwest but don't want to live in Seattle? OHSU. None of those places would shock anyone - but a lot of med students just ignore them since they might not be as flashy. How often do they get listed in "top 10 flavor of the month" posts?
Look at places with a past Cushing award winner for chair or PD. Everyone knows Jim Rutka and Art Day know how to train people. But does anyone talk about their programs? No. Because Toronto is north of the border and everyone ignores UTH for BCM.
Go to any one of these places and you can be set up if you work hard.
They might disagree at Brigham
I’m the OP, but kinda addressing a question that has been unanswered - can fellowship compensate for a lighter operative experience during residency?
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(01-25-2022, 02:07 PM)Guest Wrote: I’m the OP, but kinda addressing a question that has been unanswered - can fellowship compensate for a lighter operative experience during residency?
Yes
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