(11-17-2017, 06:59 AM)Guest Wrote: (11-17-2017, 01:28 AM)Guest Wrote: (11-16-2017, 10:23 PM)Guest Wrote: (11-16-2017, 02:23 PM)Guest Wrote: (11-15-2017, 09:25 PM)Guest Wrote: 6q4Can someone break down Jefferson vs. Penn and the reasons for picking one over the other? I can’t do a sub-I at both due to the regional bias thing. What are the big pros and cons and major differences? Who has the most volume? Thanks guys
Very different programs.. Ask yourself what u want in a program/ your career and whether you'd be a good candidate for these places. U want something super academic, very researchy, do u like basic science stuff ? Do u go to a big name med school with high prestige?-->penn
Do u prefer a place with maybe more volume at the expense of the things listed above ? Do u mind not having the best peds training in residency. Do u like vascular ? -->>Jeff
This is not an exhaustive list. Thing about your decision like this
When did they fire residents in recent years? I don't agree with the notion that Penn is a research-biased program like Stanford or Columbia, although its name would suggest that. They don't regularly train fellows which gives more cases to the residents (CHOP doesn't count and sometimes Baltuch takes a functional/epilepsy fellow but I don't think it was an official functional fellowship program last time I checked.
Jefferson has a high case volume but don't expect to get much extra vascular, skull-base, spine or functional training here because of the amount of fellows they regularly have (especially vascular). I wouldn't say Jeff lacks pediatric neurosurgery training, they do their peds rotation via CHOP which speaks for itself.
Both are very good programs. Grady at Penn is well known and his recommendation letter would carry weight in this process. I think Sharan writes letters for Jeff rotators, because Rosenwasser is too busy to spend much time with during a sub-i, but Sharan writes solid letters regardless.
I'd recommend Jefferson if you're not gung ho about academics and want a more operative sub-i experience. If you want a big name rec letter then go with Penn.
If you're looking to match in PA or the northeast then rotate at Pitt. Pitt has the best neurosurgery department in the state. Strong both academically and in operative experience.
I agree with this. Also consider NYU if it's close enough to you. When I interviewed 3 years ago Penn was known to be one of the programs that lost residents for unexplained reasons (along with UVA, Brigham, Penn State, etc.) I don't remember the exact reason for the loss but one of the guys there said that some of the seniors and attendings didn't like them and pushed them out. Obviously these kinds of things change over time but at least to me that really mattered considering we've busted our asses for years and signed up for 7 more. Currently it sounds like Brown and now Columbia are having these problems. Columbia is literally missing residents for half of their PGYs.
Yeah, what's going on with Columbia one residents some years, three others, a PGY2 in the lab? Brown doesn't even list their residents recently, probably due to turnover! I'm always leery about programs that are not transparent with their current list of residents. Likewise, it's pretty easy to see turnover, go back to the match list from that year and see if they are still on the website. Overall, the national turnover rate is 30%, so it does happen. Hiding it, though, is disingenuous.
Maybe you guys should check your facts before posting. Kind of scary when residents do this, posting gossip and things they think they know without checking. Hope you don't run your service like this. I guess it's the era of fake news anyway....
Some facts:
1. Attrition rate in neurosurgery is extremely high, something like 25% in recently published reports - the one correct fact in that post. Reasons are nuanced. It's a tough job, junior residency is rough, long hours, lots of responsibility, steep learning curve. As neurosurgery residents you'll take care of some of the sickest patients in the hospital. At the same time you are held at a much higher standard than any other resident. You won't face this until you're a resident. It's tough to figure this out when you're shadowing residents as a subI.
2. People change their minds. Priorities change. Life happens. And neurosurgery residency is extremely long. The best you can do is think long and hard before you decide you want to do this and think about your priorities. If you're not planning on spending the next 7 years in a hospital or if you don't love spending time in the OR then don't do this. Period.
3. These things fluctuate a lot. Sometimes it's related to the culture of the place (which can rapidly change, it's extremely chief dependent), sometimes it just happens - see above. A sample of 2-3 does not necessarily set a trend, may just be an unfortunate streak. Few examples: NYU, the place that some people on here are raving about, has lost 2 residents over the past few months - no one but those residents knows the real reason so just go and check it out for yourself, it's a fantastic program. If people are not transparent about these things, then that's a problem and you should be very careful when you rank places that do that. Penn hasn't lost a resident in years. Aside from NYU and Columbia, UCLA, UCSF and Brigham have also recently lost PGY2s and 3s. USC and Hopkins as well. Top programs with excellent training and culture. Reasons vary widely, just ask during your interviews. Did the resident actually quit medicine? (Columbia). Did the resident switch fields? (Hopkins, UCSF, NYU and Columbia residents). Or did they simply switch programs - and if yes, did they do it for family reasons? Again, facts not random gossip.
4. Some places, such as Columbia and Hopkins backfill when they loose a resident. Hence the 3-1 or 5-3 or whatever resident distribution. Duh.
5. At Columbia your PGY2 and PGY5 are lab years. That's why there's a PGY2 in the lab. Again, look things up before posting random comments.
Bottom line, in the era of trolls, fake news and collusion check before you trust a random post on an anonymous forum (this post included of course). Discuss it during your interviews. Even better, discuss it with people who have rotated there and who may have more insight - but take everything with a grain of salt as people may be dishonest for obvious reasons (unfortunately). I would definitely not turn down interviews based on random forum gossip.
(11-17-2017, 10:09 AM)Guest Wrote: (11-17-2017, 06:59 AM)Guest Wrote: (11-17-2017, 01:28 AM)Guest Wrote: (11-16-2017, 10:23 PM)Guest Wrote: (11-16-2017, 02:23 PM)Guest Wrote: Very different programs.. Ask yourself what u want in a program/ your career and whether you'd be a good candidate for these places. U want something super academic, very researchy, do u like basic science stuff ? Do u go to a big name med school with high prestige?-->penn
Do u prefer a place with maybe more volume at the expense of the things listed above ? Do u mind not having the best peds training in residency. Do u like vascular ? -->>Jeff
This is not an exhaustive list. Thing about your decision like this
When did they fire residents in recent years? I don't agree with the notion that Penn is a research-biased program like Stanford or Columbia, although its name would suggest that. They don't regularly train fellows which gives more cases to the residents (CHOP doesn't count and sometimes Baltuch takes a functional/epilepsy fellow but I don't think it was an official functional fellowship program last time I checked.
Jefferson has a high case volume but don't expect to get much extra vascular, skull-base, spine or functional training here because of the amount of fellows they regularly have (especially vascular). I wouldn't say Jeff lacks pediatric neurosurgery training, they do their peds rotation via CHOP which speaks for itself.
Both are very good programs. Grady at Penn is well known and his recommendation letter would carry weight in this process. I think Sharan writes letters for Jeff rotators, because Rosenwasser is too busy to spend much time with during a sub-i, but Sharan writes solid letters regardless.
I'd recommend Jefferson if you're not gung ho about academics and want a more operative sub-i experience. If you want a big name rec letter then go with Penn.
If you're looking to match in PA or the northeast then rotate at Pitt. Pitt has the best neurosurgery department in the state. Strong both academically and in operative experience.
I agree with this. Also consider NYU if it's close enough to you. When I interviewed 3 years ago Penn was known to be one of the programs that lost residents for unexplained reasons (along with UVA, Brigham, Penn State, etc.) I don't remember the exact reason for the loss but one of the guys there said that some of the seniors and attendings didn't like them and pushed them out. Obviously these kinds of things change over time but at least to me that really mattered considering we've busted our asses for years and signed up for 7 more. Currently it sounds like Brown and now Columbia are having these problems. Columbia is literally missing residents for half of their PGYs.
Yeah, what's going on with Columbia one residents some years, three others, a PGY2 in the lab? Brown doesn't even list their residents recently, probably due to turnover! I'm always leery about programs that are not transparent with their current list of residents. Likewise, it's pretty easy to see turnover, go back to the match list from that year and see if they are still on the website. Overall, the national turnover rate is 30%, so it does happen. Hiding it, though, is disingenuous.
Maybe you guys should check your facts before posting. Kind of scary when residents do this, posting gossip and things they think they know without checking. Hope you don't run your service like this. I guess it's the era of fake news anyway....
Some facts:
1. Attrition rate in neurosurgery is extremely high, something like 25% in recently published reports - the one correct fact in that post. Reasons are nuanced. It's a tough job, junior residency is rough, long hours, lots of responsibility, steep learning curve. As neurosurgery residents you'll take care of some of the sickest patients in the hospital. At the same time you are held at a much higher standard than any other resident. You won't face this until you're a resident. It's tough to figure this out when you're shadowing residents as a subI.
2. People change their minds. Priorities change. Life happens. And neurosurgery residency is extremely long. The best you can do is think long and hard before you decide you want to do this and think about your priorities. If you're not planning on spending the next 7 years in a hospital or if you don't love spending time in the OR then don't do this. Period.
3. These things fluctuate a lot. Sometimes it's related to the culture of the place (which can rapidly change, it's extremely chief dependent), sometimes it just happens - see above. A sample of 2-3 does not necessarily set a trend, may just be an unfortunate streak. Few examples: NYU, the place that some people on here are raving about, has lost 2 residents over the past few months - no one but those residents knows the real reason so just go and check it out for yourself, it's a fantastic program. If people are not transparent about these things, then that's a problem and you should be very careful when you rank places that do that. Penn hasn't lost a resident in years. Aside from NYU and Columbia, UCLA, UCSF and Brigham have also recently lost PGY2s and 3s. USC and Hopkins as well. Top programs with excellent training and culture. Reasons vary widely, just ask during your interviews. Did the resident actually quit medicine? (Columbia). Did the resident switch fields? (Hopkins, UCSF, NYU and Columbia residents). Or did they simply switch programs - and if yes, did they do it for family reasons? Again, facts not random gossip.
4. Some places, such as Columbia and Hopkins backfill when they loose a resident. Hence the 3-1 or 5-3 or whatever resident distribution. Duh.
5. At Columbia your PGY2 and PGY5 are lab years. That's why there's a PGY2 in the lab. Again, look things up before posting random comments.
Bottom line, in the era of trolls, fake news and collusion check before you trust a random post on an anonymous forum (this post included of course). Discuss it during your interviews. Even better, discuss it with people who have rotated there and who may have more insight - but take everything with a grain of salt as people may be dishonest for obvious reasons (unfortunately). I would definitely not turn down interviews based on random forum gossip.
What part of the post was not factual? Columbia has one some years and three others. This is due to attrition and back filling.
Bottom line, you are part of the problem, anonymously flaming someone with a legitimate question based on an observation.
I definitely agree that you should check any and all information you read directly from people you know. However, programs can definitely be disingenuous so make sure you're talking to people you actually trust. When I was at CNS I heard that NYU fired their intern and that yeah they "switched fields" but that wasn't of their own volition. And yeah of course that doesn't mean the program itself is bad, NYU is obviously a top tier program in every respect but its important to know this stuff.
Yeah the junior at Columbia "quit medicine" but if you ask anyone at Columbia they'll tell you its because he thought the program was too malignant. Which is crazy considering his dad is a big name there and could protect him from all the bs.
tldr yeah attrition happens but I think its absolutely fair game for applicants to consider this before they commit 120 hrs/week for 7 years and their entire careers to a program. If you're losing residents every other year (Brigham) or firing your chiefs who lined up a top endovascular fellowship (Brown) IMHO that's a problem with the program and not the residents.
Back to the topic. I don't think you need to worry about being fired at Penn or Jeff unless you're a terrible resident. Both are stable programs.
Posts: 83
Threads: 5
Joined: Jul 2017
Reputation:
1
And is the statement about rotating at Pitt to match in PA true? Would definitely love to go to Penn but I’m uncertain of trying my hand at rotating there or doing the Pitt thing. Thoughts would be appreciated on how to get a good shot
Posts: 683
Threads: 2
Joined: Dec 2016
Reputation:
6
If you want to match at a specific program then rotating there is probably the best bet. I think that was referring to a general recommendation for those looking for a great subi with a more a regional/state prefetence without a specific desired program
(11-18-2017, 04:26 AM)Tintinnabulum Wrote: And is the statement about rotating at Pitt to match in PA true? Would definitely love to go to Penn but I’m uncertain of trying my hand at rotating there or doing the Pitt thing. Thoughts would be appreciated on how to get a good shot
If you like Penn's program or have a preference for living in Philadelphia, then rotate at Penn. If you want a huge name rec letter (Friedlander) that can open doors up for you regionally, then rotate at Pitt.
Malignancy is present at a few programs and it is set either by residents, attendings, or both. I wouldn't necessarily trust the information you get during your interviews completely since malignancy is surely swept under the rug. In example, Hopkins was painted to be great but I was warned that subI's and applicants are protected from what goes on in the background. Brigham has lost a few residents and one of my buddies who graduated from the program informed me that the resident culture sucks and classes simply hate each other.
Interviewed at a "power house" in Virginia and noticed that the residents seemed miserable. The different classes didn't even speak to each other during the interview day/dinner and the tension was just palpable in the room. Other power houses like Barrow produce better surgeons and their residents are actually happy and hang out outside of the hospital.
Don't let a name/academic track record fool you when it comes to ranking programs is the advice that I got. Don't go to a place where you'll be miserable for 7 years. Choose the program with the historically best resident cohort, minimal firings, and you can get a good academic background if you're motivated enough when the time comes.
Malignant places that my mentor warned me against: Brigham, UVA, Hopkins, NYU, Pitt (some attendings are but residents get along)
Ive never heard of bwh, NYU, or Pitt being labeled as malignant. The latter two are know to be rigorous due to volume/workload, but I think most would agree that being tough and being abusive are different.
In contrast I have definitely heard that jhu and uva are still malignant and they certainly were a few years ago when I interviewed at them.
(11-20-2017, 11:12 AM)Guest Wrote: Ive never heard of bwh, NYU, or Pitt being labeled as malignant. The latter two are know to be rigorous due to volume/workload, but I think most would agree that being tough and being abusive are different.
In contrast I have definitely heard that jhu and uva are still malignant and they certainly were a few years ago when I interviewed at them.
I wouldn't say NYU is malignant. Pitt is borderline but the residents are a tight group which compensates for the toughness of the program which I can't say is true about the next three programs I will address. BWH, JHU, UVA are miserable places to train although it seems like people are willing to sacrifice their mental health for academic pedigree.
|
