Jeff vs. Penn

[Guest]

Can someone break down Jefferson vs. Penn and the reasons for picking one over the other? I can’t do a sub-I at both due to the regional bias thing. What are the big pros and cons and major differences? Who has the most volume? Thanks guys

[Guest]

Penn has fired multiple people in the past for political reasons. Personally that's enough to rule out a program for me. I heard that Jeff has strong volume and good clinical training. Penn definitely has better research opportunities but actually becoming BE in neurosurgery is by far the most important thing imo.

[Trigger]

(11-15-2017, 10:04 PM)Guest Wrote: Penn has fired multiple people in the past for political reasons. Personally that's enough to rule out a program for me. I heard that Jeff has strong volume and good clinical training. Penn definitely has better research opportunities but actually becoming BE in neurosurgery is by far the most important thing imo.

What is BE?

[Guest]

Board eligible, which is your status after graduating before you can become board certified (BC). Eg graduating from an accredited neurosurgery residency without being fired.

[Guest]

(11-16-2017, 02:09 AM)Guest Wrote: Board eligible, which is your status after graduating before you can become board certified (BC). Eg graduating from an accredited neurosurgery residency without being fired.

Why were they fired exactly? you trollin?

[Guest]

(11-15-2017, 09:25 PM)Guest Wrote: 6q4Can someone break down Jefferson vs. Penn and the reasons for picking one over the other? I can’t do a sub-I at both due to the regional bias thing. What are the big pros and cons and major differences? Who has the most volume? Thanks guys

Very different programs.. Ask yourself what u want in a program/ your career and whether you'd be a good candidate for these places. U want something super academic, very researchy, do u like basic science stuff ? Do u go to a big name med school with high prestige?-->penn

Do u prefer a place with maybe more volume at the expense of the things listed above ? Do u mind not having the best peds training in residency. Do u like vascular ? -->>Jeff 

This is not an exhaustive list. Thing about your decision like this

[Guest]

(11-16-2017, 02:23 PM)Guest Wrote:

(11-15-2017, 09:25 PM)Guest Wrote: 6q4Can someone break down Jefferson vs. Penn and the reasons for picking one over the other? I can’t do a sub-I at both due to the regional bias thing. What are the big pros and cons and major differences? Who has the most volume? Thanks guys

Very different programs.. Ask yourself what u want in a program/ your career and whether you'd be a good candidate for these places. U want something super academic, very researchy, do u like basic science stuff ? Do u go to a big name med school with high prestige?-->penn

Do u prefer a place with maybe more volume at the expense of the things listed above ? Do u mind not having the best peds training in residency. Do u like vascular ? -->>Jeff 

This is not an exhaustive list. Thing about your decision like this

When did they fire residents in recent years? I don't agree with the notion that Penn is a research-biased program like Stanford or Columbia, although its name would suggest that. They don't regularly train fellows which gives more cases to the residents (CHOP doesn't count and sometimes Baltuch takes a functional/epilepsy fellow but I don't think it was an official functional fellowship program last time I checked.

Jefferson has a high case volume but don't expect to get much extra vascular, skull-base, spine or functional training here because of the amount of fellows they regularly have (especially vascular). I wouldn't say Jeff lacks pediatric neurosurgery training, they do their peds rotation via CHOP which speaks for itself.

Both are very good programs. Grady at Penn is well known and his recommendation letter would carry weight in this process. I think Sharan writes letters for Jeff rotators, because Rosenwasser is too busy to spend much time with during a sub-i, but Sharan writes solid letters regardless.

I'd recommend Jefferson if you're not gung ho about academics and want a more operative sub-i experience. If you want a big name rec letter then go with Penn.

---

If you're looking to match in PA or the northeast then rotate at Pitt. Pitt has the best neurosurgery department in the state. Strong both academically and in operative experience.

[Guest]

^Awesome response, thanks

[Guest]

(11-16-2017, 10:23 PM)Guest Wrote:

(11-16-2017, 02:23 PM)Guest Wrote:

(11-15-2017, 09:25 PM)Guest Wrote: 6q4Can someone break down Jefferson vs. Penn and the reasons for picking one over the other? I can’t do a sub-I at both due to the regional bias thing. What are the big pros and cons and major differences? Who has the most volume? Thanks guys

Very different programs.. Ask yourself what u want in a program/ your career and whether you'd be a good candidate for these places. U want something super academic, very researchy, do u like basic science stuff ? Do u go to a big name med school with high prestige?-->penn

Do u prefer a place with maybe more volume at the expense of the things listed above ? Do u mind not having the best peds training in residency. Do u like vascular ? -->>Jeff 

This is not an exhaustive list. Thing about your decision like this

When did they fire residents in recent years? I don't agree with the notion that Penn is a research-biased program like Stanford or Columbia, although its name would suggest that. They don't regularly train fellows which gives more cases to the residents (CHOP doesn't count and sometimes Baltuch takes a functional/epilepsy fellow but I don't think it was an official functional fellowship program last time I checked.

Jefferson has a high case volume but don't expect to get much extra vascular, skull-base, spine or functional training here because of the amount of fellows they regularly have (especially vascular). I wouldn't say Jeff lacks pediatric neurosurgery training, they do their peds rotation via CHOP which speaks for itself.

Both are very good programs. Grady at Penn is well known and his recommendation letter would carry weight in this process. I think Sharan writes letters for Jeff rotators, because Rosenwasser is too busy to spend much time with during a sub-i, but Sharan writes solid letters regardless.

I'd recommend Jefferson if you're not gung ho about academics and want a more operative sub-i experience. If you want a big name rec letter then go with Penn.

---

If you're looking to match in PA or the northeast then rotate at Pitt. Pitt has the best neurosurgery department in the state. Strong both academically and in operative experience.

I agree with this. Also consider NYU if it's close enough to you. When I interviewed 3 years ago Penn was known to be one of the programs that lost residents for unexplained reasons (along with UVA, Brigham, Penn State, etc.) I don't remember the exact reason for the loss but one of the guys there said that some of the seniors and attendings didn't like them and pushed them out. Obviously these kinds of things change over time but at least to me that really mattered considering we've busted our asses for years and signed up for 7 more. Currently it sounds like Brown and now Columbia are having these problems. Columbia is literally missing residents for half of their PGYs.

[Guest]

(11-17-2017, 01:28 AM)Guest Wrote:

(11-16-2017, 10:23 PM)Guest Wrote:

(11-16-2017, 02:23 PM)Guest Wrote:

(11-15-2017, 09:25 PM)Guest Wrote: 6q4Can someone break down Jefferson vs. Penn and the reasons for picking one over the other? I can’t do a sub-I at both due to the regional bias thing. What are the big pros and cons and major differences? Who has the most volume? Thanks guys

Very different programs.. Ask yourself what u want in a program/ your career and whether you'd be a good candidate for these places. U want something super academic, very researchy, do u like basic science stuff ? Do u go to a big name med school with high prestige?-->penn

Do u prefer a place with maybe more volume at the expense of the things listed above ? Do u mind not having the best peds training in residency. Do u like vascular ? -->>Jeff 

This is not an exhaustive list. Thing about your decision like this

When did they fire residents in recent years? I don't agree with the notion that Penn is a research-biased program like Stanford or Columbia, although its name would suggest that. They don't regularly train fellows which gives more cases to the residents (CHOP doesn't count and sometimes Baltuch takes a functional/epilepsy fellow but I don't think it was an official functional fellowship program last time I checked.

Jefferson has a high case volume but don't expect to get much extra vascular, skull-base, spine or functional training here because of the amount of fellows they regularly have (especially vascular). I wouldn't say Jeff lacks pediatric neurosurgery training, they do their peds rotation via CHOP which speaks for itself.

Both are very good programs. Grady at Penn is well known and his recommendation letter would carry weight in this process. I think Sharan writes letters for Jeff rotators, because Rosenwasser is too busy to spend much time with during a sub-i, but Sharan writes solid letters regardless.

I'd recommend Jefferson if you're not gung ho about academics and want a more operative sub-i experience. If you want a big name rec letter then go with Penn.

---

If you're looking to match in PA or the northeast then rotate at Pitt. Pitt has the best neurosurgery department in the state. Strong both academically and in operative experience.

I agree with this. Also consider NYU if it's close enough to you. When I interviewed 3 years ago Penn was known to be one of the programs that lost residents for unexplained reasons (along with UVA, Brigham, Penn State, etc.) I don't remember the exact reason for the loss but one of the guys there said that some of the seniors and attendings didn't like them and pushed them out. Obviously these kinds of things change over time but at least to me that really mattered considering we've busted our asses for years and signed up for 7 more. Currently it sounds like Brown and now Columbia are having these problems. Columbia is literally missing residents for half of their PGYs.

Yeah, what's going on with Columbia one residents some years, three others, a PGY2 in the lab?  Brown doesn't even list their residents recently, probably due to turnover!  I'm always leery about programs that are not transparent with their current list of residents.  Likewise, it's pretty easy to see turnover, go back to the match list from that year and see if they are still on the website.  Overall, the national turnover rate is 30%, so it does happen.  Hiding it, though, is disingenuous.