(04-29-2017, 01:10 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 11:45 AM)HUdispo Wrote: (04-28-2017, 09:44 PM)Guest Wrote: Lol...of course it matters considering more applicants for the same number of spots = more competition. OP didn't say they were considering another specialty because nsg is too competitive; they are likely just worried that they may not get to pursue their passion if they don't match....this is how most people feel going through the match.
Well said. The fear of not matching in a competitive specialty, regardless of the quality of your app, is justifiable considering great, deserving candidates slip through the cracks every year; it's an imperfect process. But I think the best things we can do as applicants is to at least *consider* what our plan will be if we don't match into NSG so we're not completely blindsided if worse comes to worst. Regardless, I don't think it's fair to always respond to everyone's concerns with "if you're worried about that, you might not be cut out for it."
Really agree with your last sentence. People in this field (and other competitive ones) LOVE to say "if you do "x", you're not cut out for this field". It's garbage, you dont need to be god to go into neurosurgery or any other competitive field. But that doesn't stop people from saying:
1) if you care about family, you're not cut out for nsg
2) if you even think about a day off, you're not cut out for nsg
3) if you don't dream about your research, you're not cut out for nsg
4) if you contemplate your interest in nsg for one millisecond, you're not cut out for nsg
5) if you have any doubts about your app, you're not cut out for nsg
6) if you get emotionally attached to a patient as a young and inexperienced med student, you're not cut out for nsg
7) if you're not willing to marry your hospital instead of your SO, you're not cut out for nsg
8) if you go through a rough patch as a med student and maybe experience burnout for a few weeks, you're not cut out for nsg
9) if you dislike the idea of working 150 hours a week as an attending, you're not cut out for nsg
10) if you don't think/dream/do neurosurgery 24/7, you're not out for nsg
It's all garbage. We're all human.
Thanks for posting this.
We can all agree NSG is the exception to every rule, it is the most gruelling residency there is.
It helps to learn from mentors (attendings/residents) who have struck some sort of balance between life and work. It shows you reality more than any forum crawling with high-strung med students. The reality is not perfect, it simply is. And that's what you have to be comfortable with.
(04-29-2017, 01:10 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 11:45 AM)HUdispo Wrote: (04-28-2017, 09:44 PM)Guest Wrote: Lol...of course it matters considering more applicants for the same number of spots = more competition. OP didn't say they were considering another specialty because nsg is too competitive; they are likely just worried that they may not get to pursue their passion if they don't match....this is how most people feel going through the match.
Well said. The fear of not matching in a competitive specialty, regardless of the quality of your app, is justifiable considering great, deserving candidates slip through the cracks every year; it's an imperfect process. But I think the best things we can do as applicants is to at least *consider* what our plan will be if we don't match into NSG so we're not completely blindsided if worse comes to worst. Regardless, I don't think it's fair to always respond to everyone's concerns with "if you're worried about that, you might not be cut out for it."
Really agree with your last sentence. People in this field (and other competitive ones) LOVE to say "if you do "x", you're not cut out for this field". It's garbage, you dont need to be god to go into neurosurgery or any other competitive field. But that doesn't stop people from saying:
1) if you care about family, you're not cut out for nsg
2) if you even think about a day off, you're not cut out for nsg
3) if you don't dream about your research, you're not cut out for nsg
4) if you contemplate your interest in nsg for one millisecond, you're not cut out for nsg
5) if you have any doubts about your app, you're not cut out for nsg
6) if you get emotionally attached to a patient as a young and inexperienced med student, you're not cut out for nsg
7) if you're not willing to marry your hospital instead of your SO, you're not cut out for nsg
8) if you go through a rough patch as a med student and maybe experience burnout for a few weeks, you're not cut out for nsg
9) if you dislike the idea of working 150 hours a week as an attending, you're not cut out for nsg
10) if you don't think/dream/do neurosurgery 24/7, you're not out for nsg
It's all garbage. We're all human.
Thanks for posting this.
We can all agree NSG is the exception to every rule, it is the most gruelling residency there is.
It helps to learn from mentors (attendings/residents) who have struck some sort of balance between life and work. It shows you reality more than any forum crawling with high-strung med students. The reality is not perfect, it simply is. And that's what you have to be comfortable with.
Not to mention that every.single.attending particularly surgeons in other fields tried to talk me out of neurosurgery. If I had a dime for every time someone told me how bad my life is going to suck because of the career, I'd be rich and could retire. It may very well be the worst lifestyle of all specialties, but I feel it may not be by that wide of a margin from Uro, Plastics, Ortho,, Gen surg, ENT. Especially past residency.
(04-29-2017, 02:48 PM)Guest Wrote: Not to mention that every.single.attending particularly surgeons in other fields tried to talk me out of neurosurgery. If I had a dime for every time someone told me how bad my life is going to suck because of the career, I'd be rich and could retire. It may very well be the worst lifestyle of all specialties, but I feel it may not be by that wide of a margin from Uro, Plastics, Ortho,, Gen surg, ENT. Especially past residency.
I used to want to do ENT or Ortho because they were at least related to neurosurgery, and from all the input I was getting, life would be much easier with either of these than neurosurgery. Then I realized I want to do what I love, it's time to go all in. Exposed myself to neurosurgery and assessed it for myself. Nothing beats primary exposure.
(04-29-2017, 01:10 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 11:45 AM)HUdispo Wrote: (04-28-2017, 09:44 PM)Guest Wrote: Lol...of course it matters considering more applicants for the same number of spots = more competition. OP didn't say they were considering another specialty because nsg is too competitive; they are likely just worried that they may not get to pursue their passion if they don't match....this is how most people feel going through the match.
Well said. The fear of not matching in a competitive specialty, regardless of the quality of your app, is justifiable considering great, deserving candidates slip through the cracks every year; it's an imperfect process. But I think the best things we can do as applicants is to at least *consider* what our plan will be if we don't match into NSG so we're not completely blindsided if worse comes to worst. Regardless, I don't think it's fair to always respond to everyone's concerns with "if you're worried about that, you might not be cut out for it."
Really agree with your last sentence. People in this field (and other competitive ones) LOVE to say "if you do "x", you're not cut out for this field". It's garbage, you dont need to be god to go into neurosurgery or any other competitive field. But that doesn't stop people from saying:
1) if you care about family, you're not cut out for nsg
2) if you even think about a day off, you're not cut out for nsg
3) if you don't dream about your research, you're not cut out for nsg
4) if you contemplate your interest in nsg for one millisecond, you're not cut out for nsg
5) if you have any doubts about your app, you're not cut out for nsg
6) if you get emotionally attached to a patient as a young and inexperienced med student, you're not cut out for nsg
7) if you're not willing to marry your hospital instead of your SO, you're not cut out for nsg
8) if you go through a rough patch as a med student and maybe experience burnout for a few weeks, you're not cut out for nsg
9) if you dislike the idea of working 150 hours a week as an attending, you're not cut out for nsg
10) if you don't think/dream/do neurosurgery 24/7, you're not out for nsg
It's all garbage. We're all human.
Sure, we're all human and probably have these thoughts to some extent. My issue is with the shit box med students who make this their priority and think they'll be able to complain loud enough about the micro aggressions telling them they can't have it both ways, that they'll get what they want. Residency is hard. Neurosurgery is harder. Stop whining and look for an easy out and suck it up. If you can't reconcile this, then indeed, nsg is not for you.
(04-29-2017, 05:26 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 01:10 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 11:45 AM)HUdispo Wrote: (04-28-2017, 09:44 PM)Guest Wrote: Lol...of course it matters considering more applicants for the same number of spots = more competition. OP didn't say they were considering another specialty because nsg is too competitive; they are likely just worried that they may not get to pursue their passion if they don't match....this is how most people feel going through the match.
Well said. The fear of not matching in a competitive specialty, regardless of the quality of your app, is justifiable considering great, deserving candidates slip through the cracks every year; it's an imperfect process. But I think the best things we can do as applicants is to at least *consider* what our plan will be if we don't match into NSG so we're not completely blindsided if worse comes to worst. Regardless, I don't think it's fair to always respond to everyone's concerns with "if you're worried about that, you might not be cut out for it."
Really agree with your last sentence. People in this field (and other competitive ones) LOVE to say "if you do "x", you're not cut out for this field". It's garbage, you dont need to be god to go into neurosurgery or any other competitive field. But that doesn't stop people from saying:
1) if you care about family, you're not cut out for nsg
2) if you even think about a day off, you're not cut out for nsg
3) if you don't dream about your research, you're not cut out for nsg
4) if you contemplate your interest in nsg for one millisecond, you're not cut out for nsg
5) if you have any doubts about your app, you're not cut out for nsg
6) if you get emotionally attached to a patient as a young and inexperienced med student, you're not cut out for nsg
7) if you're not willing to marry your hospital instead of your SO, you're not cut out for nsg
8) if you go through a rough patch as a med student and maybe experience burnout for a few weeks, you're not cut out for nsg
9) if you dislike the idea of working 150 hours a week as an attending, you're not cut out for nsg
10) if you don't think/dream/do neurosurgery 24/7, you're not out for nsg
It's all garbage. We're all human.
Sure, we're all human and probably have these thoughts to some extent. My issue is with the shit box med students who make this their priority and think they'll be able to complain loud enough about the micro aggressions telling them they can't have it both ways, that they'll get what they want. Residency is hard. Neurosurgery is harder. Stop whining and look for an easy out and suck it up. If you can't reconcile this, then indeed, nsg is not for you.
Maybe your experience is different than mine but the majority of med students I know interested in neurosurgery aren't like what you describe. They know the demands of the field and know they will make sacrifices. They aren't looking for any easy way out so you are part of the problem when you tell them to suck it up. Looking forward to one night off every 3 months to be able to spend it with your SO or looking forward to leaving the hospital before 8pm once a year to grab food at the new restaurant in town with your buddies is not "looking for an easy way out". This is normal human behavior and probably leads to better patient care. The problem is that dbag attendings/residents take any small chance they get to slam med students as "millennials/entitled/lazy".
(04-29-2017, 06:06 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 05:26 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 01:10 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 11:45 AM)HUdispo Wrote: (04-28-2017, 09:44 PM)Guest Wrote: Lol...of course it matters considering more applicants for the same number of spots = more competition. OP didn't say they were considering another specialty because nsg is too competitive; they are likely just worried that they may not get to pursue their passion if they don't match....this is how most people feel going through the match.
Well said. The fear of not matching in a competitive specialty, regardless of the quality of your app, is justifiable considering great, deserving candidates slip through the cracks every year; it's an imperfect process. But I think the best things we can do as applicants is to at least *consider* what our plan will be if we don't match into NSG so we're not completely blindsided if worse comes to worst. Regardless, I don't think it's fair to always respond to everyone's concerns with "if you're worried about that, you might not be cut out for it."
Really agree with your last sentence. People in this field (and other competitive ones) LOVE to say "if you do "x", you're not cut out for this field". It's garbage, you dont need to be god to go into neurosurgery or any other competitive field. But that doesn't stop people from saying:
1) if you care about family, you're not cut out for nsg
2) if you even think about a day off, you're not cut out for nsg
3) if you don't dream about your research, you're not cut out for nsg
4) if you contemplate your interest in nsg for one millisecond, you're not cut out for nsg
5) if you have any doubts about your app, you're not cut out for nsg
6) if you get emotionally attached to a patient as a young and inexperienced med student, you're not cut out for nsg
7) if you're not willing to marry your hospital instead of your SO, you're not cut out for nsg
8) if you go through a rough patch as a med student and maybe experience burnout for a few weeks, you're not cut out for nsg
9) if you dislike the idea of working 150 hours a week as an attending, you're not cut out for nsg
10) if you don't think/dream/do neurosurgery 24/7, you're not out for nsg
It's all garbage. We're all human.
Sure, we're all human and probably have these thoughts to some extent. My issue is with the shit box med students who make this their priority and think they'll be able to complain loud enough about the micro aggressions telling them they can't have it both ways, that they'll get what they want. Residency is hard. Neurosurgery is harder. Stop whining and look for an easy out and suck it up. If you can't reconcile this, then indeed, nsg is not for you.
Maybe your experience is different than mine but the majority of med students I know interested in neurosurgery aren't like what you describe. They know the demands of the field and know they will make sacrifices. They aren't looking for any easy way out so you are part of the problem when you tell them to suck it up. Looking forward to one night off every 3 months to be able to spend it with your SO or looking forward to leaving the hospital before 8pm once a year to grab food at the new restaurant in town with your buddies is not "looking for an easy way out". This is normal human behavior and probably leads to better patient care. The problem is that dbag attendings/residents take any small chance they get to slam med students as "millennials/entitled/lazy".
If you're a med student, then thanks for being one of the good ones.
If you're a resident, you are lucky for not having to have had to deal with any of these individuals. Yes, generalizing about all med students is unfair. Even so, yes, most medical students want the easy way out and think they can make neurosurgery fit their dream of 20-hours a week boutique office based practice so they can travel and rock climb. It is far better to push a couple of fringe players away by being a dbag than have to deal with one millennial and their entitled bullshit.
(04-29-2017, 06:38 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 06:06 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 05:26 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 01:10 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 11:45 AM)HUdispo Wrote: Well said. The fear of not matching in a competitive specialty, regardless of the quality of your app, is justifiable considering great, deserving candidates slip through the cracks every year; it's an imperfect process. But I think the best things we can do as applicants is to at least *consider* what our plan will be if we don't match into NSG so we're not completely blindsided if worse comes to worst. Regardless, I don't think it's fair to always respond to everyone's concerns with "if you're worried about that, you might not be cut out for it."
Really agree with your last sentence. People in this field (and other competitive ones) LOVE to say "if you do "x", you're not cut out for this field". It's garbage, you dont need to be god to go into neurosurgery or any other competitive field. But that doesn't stop people from saying:
1) if you care about family, you're not cut out for nsg
2) if you even think about a day off, you're not cut out for nsg
3) if you don't dream about your research, you're not cut out for nsg
4) if you contemplate your interest in nsg for one millisecond, you're not cut out for nsg
5) if you have any doubts about your app, you're not cut out for nsg
6) if you get emotionally attached to a patient as a young and inexperienced med student, you're not cut out for nsg
7) if you're not willing to marry your hospital instead of your SO, you're not cut out for nsg
8) if you go through a rough patch as a med student and maybe experience burnout for a few weeks, you're not cut out for nsg
9) if you dislike the idea of working 150 hours a week as an attending, you're not cut out for nsg
10) if you don't think/dream/do neurosurgery 24/7, you're not out for nsg
It's all garbage. We're all human.
Sure, we're all human and probably have these thoughts to some extent. My issue is with the shit box med students who make this their priority and think they'll be able to complain loud enough about the micro aggressions telling them they can't have it both ways, that they'll get what they want. Residency is hard. Neurosurgery is harder. Stop whining and look for an easy out and suck it up. If you can't reconcile this, then indeed, nsg is not for you.
Maybe your experience is different than mine but the majority of med students I know interested in neurosurgery aren't like what you describe. They know the demands of the field and know they will make sacrifices. They aren't looking for any easy way out so you are part of the problem when you tell them to suck it up. Looking forward to one night off every 3 months to be able to spend it with your SO or looking forward to leaving the hospital before 8pm once a year to grab food at the new restaurant in town with your buddies is not "looking for an easy way out". This is normal human behavior and probably leads to better patient care. The problem is that dbag attendings/residents take any small chance they get to slam med students as "millennials/entitled/lazy".
If you're a med student, then thanks for being one of the good ones.
If you're a resident, you are lucky for not having to have had to deal with any of these individuals. Yes, generalizing about all med students is unfair. Even so, yes, most medical students want the easy way out and think they can make neurosurgery fit their dream of 20-hours a week boutique office based practice so they can travel and rock climb. It is far better to push a couple of fringe players away by being a dbag than have to deal with one millennial and their entitled bullshit.
Fair enough. I also think there is a difference between educating a student about the demands of the field and judging them as not cut out for the profession based on isolated instances. My sample size is small (n=4), but the med students I know are really hard working and put in the hours. Yet, they are also down to earth and enjoy other things in life. Maybe this is hard to find and I'm lucky, maybe not. Time will tell once the interview trail starts.
(04-29-2017, 06:59 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 06:38 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 06:06 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 05:26 PM)Guest Wrote: (04-29-2017, 01:10 PM)Guest Wrote: Really agree with your last sentence. People in this field (and other competitive ones) LOVE to say "if you do "x", you're not cut out for this field". It's garbage, you dont need to be god to go into neurosurgery or any other competitive field. But that doesn't stop people from saying:
1) if you care about family, you're not cut out for nsg
2) if you even think about a day off, you're not cut out for nsg
3) if you don't dream about your research, you're not cut out for nsg
4) if you contemplate your interest in nsg for one millisecond, you're not cut out for nsg
5) if you have any doubts about your app, you're not cut out for nsg
6) if you get emotionally attached to a patient as a young and inexperienced med student, you're not cut out for nsg
7) if you're not willing to marry your hospital instead of your SO, you're not cut out for nsg
8) if you go through a rough patch as a med student and maybe experience burnout for a few weeks, you're not cut out for nsg
9) if you dislike the idea of working 150 hours a week as an attending, you're not cut out for nsg
10) if you don't think/dream/do neurosurgery 24/7, you're not out for nsg
It's all garbage. We're all human.
Sure, we're all human and probably have these thoughts to some extent. My issue is with the shit box med students who make this their priority and think they'll be able to complain loud enough about the micro aggressions telling them they can't have it both ways, that they'll get what they want. Residency is hard. Neurosurgery is harder. Stop whining and look for an easy out and suck it up. If you can't reconcile this, then indeed, nsg is not for you.
Maybe your experience is different than mine but the majority of med students I know interested in neurosurgery aren't like what you describe. They know the demands of the field and know they will make sacrifices. They aren't looking for any easy way out so you are part of the problem when you tell them to suck it up. Looking forward to one night off every 3 months to be able to spend it with your SO or looking forward to leaving the hospital before 8pm once a year to grab food at the new restaurant in town with your buddies is not "looking for an easy way out". This is normal human behavior and probably leads to better patient care. The problem is that dbag attendings/residents take any small chance they get to slam med students as "millennials/entitled/lazy".
If you're a med student, then thanks for being one of the good ones.
If you're a resident, you are lucky for not having to have had to deal with any of these individuals. Yes, generalizing about all med students is unfair. Even so, yes, most medical students want the easy way out and think they can make neurosurgery fit their dream of 20-hours a week boutique office based practice so they can travel and rock climb. It is far better to push a couple of fringe players away by being a dbag than have to deal with one millennial and their entitled bullshit.
Fair enough. I also think there is a difference between educating a student about the demands of the field and judging them as not cut out for the profession based on isolated instances. My sample size is small (n=4), but the med students I know are really hard working and put in the hours. Yet, they are also down to earth and enjoy other things in life. Maybe this is hard to find and I'm lucky, maybe not. Time will tell once the interview trail starts.
This conversation seems to be dominated by people who are not currently in residency pontificating about residency. The reality is that most people who make it to the application process have given a decent amount of thought to what a residency in neurosurgery will mean and they think they can hack it. That's a good thing. Unfortunately, you will never really know until you are actually forced to work 130 hours in a week. Most people who care enough to slog through med school/applications/sub-i's/interview trail (and performed well) will find a way to manage. The entire process actually does a pretty good job of weeding people out - you will note that most people who make it to residency do find a way to graduate their program.
Most residents don't dream about spending every waking moment in the hospital away from friends and family. Most want to go home and see their wife and kids. This is not weakness, this is sanity. Residents who don't feel this way are set up for burnout/failure. Most attendings have a life outside of the hospital. There are some outliers but they are not necessarily the best people to emulate.
Yes, residency is challenging, we are humbled all the time by our complications, outcomes and attending feedback. But its also fantastic when you play a key role in a good outcome, and that happens a lot.
In summary, this a great field. If you want to be a neurosurgeon, then apply. There are always more applicants than slots and there are always good applicants that don't match. This is the unfortunate reality of going into one of the premier specialties in medicine. Don't let the competition or the ridiculousness of these threads deter you from applying if this is what you want to do.
This is a funny thread. Lets make it simple. 1 out of every 5 of you who end up matching will not make it through NS residency. And by the way, this is also true for Ob/Gyn and Gen Surg, except in NS you will throw away a bigger chunk of your life if you don't graduate. Once in residency, no one gives a flying fig about your family life or personal reasons for being there or your step score and "Harvard" pedigree. You either tow the line and do the work or you pay the price. To remain motivated for "7" years, it helps (you personally) if you truly love the field and you are truly a hard worker. It also helps if you don't have a spouse and children or if you do, they will be extremely understanding for the next 7 to 9 years, instead of 4 to 6 years for most other fields. It is detrimental (for you personally) if you are there because you just like the idea of being a neurosurgeon and/or the prospect of making more money. There is nothing magical about neurosurgery vs any other specialty. It just requires acquisition of more knowledge and skill so you have to be sharper, do more work and spend more years to train. Other than that, its a walk in the park.
(04-30-2017, 09:12 AM)Guest Wrote: Once in residency, no one gives a flying fig about your... step score and "Harvard" pedigree.
Yet, it is the major criteria programs judge us on. Sounds hypocritical to me?
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