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05-02-2020, 08:42 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2020, 09:03 PM by neuron777.)
(05-02-2020, 07:25 PM)Guest Wrote: My program is not related to the SNS ed committee in any way and only found out about the policies this week. As of earlier this week, they were planning to abide by them completely
+1 Same, slow to find out at my institution but quick to uphold
(05-02-2020, 08:40 PM)Guest Wrote: Resident at a program with 20+ sub-i's regularly here...
We spoke about this with our PD and chair after the announcement. The SNS provides guidelines and suggestions, they are not the end all be all and it's odd for them to try make such an authoritative statement. We're still going over the exact policy but we will likely be (like Lesniak said at NW) considering each month's applicants case by case based on how things progress with COVID and re-opening for elective cases.
We're almost certain to have Sub-i's, it will just depend on whether we allow them to start in July, August, or September, June is probably not going to be possible. Our program coordinator is planning on sending out exact plans to applicants soon. Keep in mind these rotations aren't just for you guys, they're one of our central factors and planning our rank list, we don't want to go into interview season blind either. What's likely going to happen is reputable programs will start announcing they're allowing sub-i's 1 by 1 and a domino effect will occur.
Selden, Chambless and the rest of the faculty group in that meeting are all highly reputable in the field for sure, but they (like the SNS) by no means speak for everyone. It's a pretty harsh statement to make saying that it will be looked down upon to do a sub-i. What's equally ridiculous is expecting a general surgery letter. Most faculty barely pay attention to letters that aren't from PDs or Chairs, let alone some random colorectal surgeon.
How will institutions account for students who may be unable to attend sub-i slots due to more rigid travel restrictions imposed by their states (i.e. Seattle or NYC) or their home institutions? It's unclear whether the "case by case basis" alluded by Lesniak means people who have the ability to make these slots or people w/o home programs who need these rotations to keep their application hopes alive. It seems for applicants the 2 options are socialism or hunger games, and both will have adverse results.
So for those of us that haven't even applied to aways yet due to VSAS being closed. Should we still do so once it opens up the week of May 11? Any fear of turning down these Sub-Is if the sentiment of the field ultimately becomes for all applicants not to do Sub-Is, or is that just not going to happen?
(05-02-2020, 08:40 PM)Guest Wrote: Resident at a program with 20+ sub-i's regularly here...
We spoke about this with our PD and chair after the announcement. The SNS provides guidelines and suggestions, they are not the end all be all and it's odd for them to try make such an authoritative statement. We're still going over the exact policy but we will likely be (like Lesniak said at NW) considering each month's applicants case by case based on how things progress with COVID and re-opening for elective cases.
We're almost certain to have Sub-i's, it will just depend on whether we allow them to start in July, August, or September, June is probably not going to be possible. Our program coordinator is planning on sending out exact plans to applicants soon. Keep in mind these rotations aren't just for you guys, they're one of our central factors and planning our rank list, we don't want to go into interview season blind either. What's likely going to happen is reputable programs will start announcing they're allowing sub-i's 1 by 1 and a domino effect will occur.
Selden, Chambless and the rest of the faculty group in that meeting are all highly reputable in the field for sure, but they (like the SNS) by no means speak for everyone. It's a pretty harsh statement to make saying that it will be looked down upon to do a sub-i. What's equally ridiculous is expecting a general surgery letter. Most faculty barely pay attention to letters that aren't from PDs or Chairs, let alone some random colorectal surgeon.
300 people were on that zoom meeting so likely virtually every applicant. We were directly told with no uncertainty by the PD’s of several leading institutions that anyone who goes outside of the boundaries of the SNS recommendations and seeks aways will not be ranked by all compliant institutions.
(05-02-2020, 08:40 PM)Guest Wrote: Resident at a program with 20+ sub-i's regularly here...
We spoke about this with our PD and chair after the announcement. The SNS provides guidelines and suggestions, they are not the end all be all and it's odd for them to try make such an authoritative statement. We're still going over the exact policy but we will likely be (like Lesniak said at NW) considering each month's applicants case by case based on how things progress with COVID and re-opening for elective cases.
We're almost certain to have Sub-i's, it will just depend on whether we allow them to start in July, August, or September, June is probably not going to be possible. Our program coordinator is planning on sending out exact plans to applicants soon. Keep in mind these rotations aren't just for you guys, they're one of our central factors and planning our rank list, we don't want to go into interview season blind either. What's likely going to happen is reputable programs will start announcing they're allowing sub-i's 1 by 1 and a domino effect will occur.
Selden, Chambless and the rest of the faculty group in that meeting are all highly reputable in the field for sure, but they (like the SNS) by no means speak for everyone. It's a pretty harsh statement to make saying that it will be looked down upon to do a sub-i. What's equally ridiculous is expecting a general surgery letter. Most faculty barely pay attention to letters that aren't from PDs or Chairs, let alone some random colorectal surgeon.
I think this would be a horrible idea. Unless you are matching to rank the students who come rotate, it would actually hurt them and provide them fewer interviews across the country (at every program which is compliant to the SNS guidelines)
There is no such thing as SNS compliant or non-compliant program. SNS absolutely has no authority over any residency program and does not speak on behalf programs, program directors, or chairs. Unless you see a policy signed by every chair and every PD, you may want to contact the program you want to rotate at for individual guidance.
Pretty sure getting blacklisted by five PDs plus their connections is sufficient to tank any match
(05-02-2020, 10:53 PM)Guest Wrote: Pretty sure getting blacklisted by five PDs plus their connections is sufficient to tank any match
Agreed.
Unfortunately, this policy not having been presented to and agreed upon by PDs before being presented to students has caused a massive rift. Students will be caught in the middle of it and most likely hurt either way
(05-02-2020, 10:49 PM)Guest Wrote: There is no such thing as SNS compliant or non-compliant program. SNS absolutely has no authority over any residency program and does not speak on behalf programs, program directors, or chairs. Unless you see a policy signed by every chair and every PD, you may want to contact the program you want to rotate at for individual guidance.
Do you understand how this screws students though?
If we don't go to an away, other students might go and be ranked higher at that program
If we do go to an away, we'll get blacklisted at numerous other programs around the country.
(05-02-2020, 10:49 PM)Guest Wrote: There is no such thing as SNS compliant or non-compliant program. SNS absolutely has no authority over any residency program and does not speak on behalf programs, program directors, or chairs. Unless you see a policy signed by every chair and every PD, you may want to contact the program you want to rotate at for individual guidance.
Do you understand how this screws students though?
If we don't go to an away, other students might go and be ranked higher at that program
If we do go to an away, we'll get blacklisted at numerous other programs around the country.
(05-02-2020, 10:16 PM)Guest Wrote: (05-02-2020, 08:40 PM)Guest Wrote: Resident at a program with 20+ sub-i's regularly here...
We spoke about this with our PD and chair after the announcement. The SNS provides guidelines and suggestions, they are not the end all be all and it's odd for them to try make such an authoritative statement. We're still going over the exact policy but we will likely be (like Lesniak said at NW) considering each month's applicants case by case based on how things progress with COVID and re-opening for elective cases.
We're almost certain to have Sub-i's, it will just depend on whether we allow them to start in July, August, or September, June is probably not going to be possible. Our program coordinator is planning on sending out exact plans to applicants soon. Keep in mind these rotations aren't just for you guys, they're one of our central factors and planning our rank list, we don't want to go into interview season blind either. What's likely going to happen is reputable programs will start announcing they're allowing sub-i's 1 by 1 and a domino effect will occur.
Selden, Chambless and the rest of the faculty group in that meeting are all highly reputable in the field for sure, but they (like the SNS) by no means speak for everyone. It's a pretty harsh statement to make saying that it will be looked down upon to do a sub-i. What's equally ridiculous is expecting a general surgery letter. Most faculty barely pay attention to letters that aren't from PDs or Chairs, let alone some random colorectal surgeon.
300 people were on that zoom meeting so likely virtually every applicant. We were directly told with no uncertainty by the PD’s of several leading institutions that anyone who goes outside of the boundaries of the SNS recommendations and seeks aways will not be ranked by all compliant institutions.
Perhaps those PDs overstepped their bounds???? Five PDs don't speak for the 100+ programs. I am a resident at a top 10 program and I can tell you that our chair and PD have no intention of following this random policy.
Senior resident at a busy midwest program. Our PD also said that if our institution allows it, we will give a chance to applicants to rotate here. No talks, by any means, about retaliation against applicants who did aways. At the same time, I don’t think it will make those without aways look less competitive to us. Don’t stress out. If you can get an Away, because “you” want to get to know the field better or connect with more people, then do it. But don’t think that if you don’t do so, you’re not going to match. The process is going to be fair regarding this aspect of the application, in my opinion.
Perhaps those PDs overstepped their bounds???? Five PDs don't speak for the 100+ programs. I am a resident at a top 10 program and I can tell you that our chair and PD have no intention of following this random policy.
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This 100%. As the poster above...also at a top 10 program and our PD has voiced that they no intention of following the 'policy/guidance/recommendation', especially regarding sub-I rotations in September, October, and beyond.
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