Solid letter of rec from senior attending or glowing one from more junior attending

[Guest]

Background is that I’ll get one LOR from a very renowned vascular attending who I’m doing my research year with, one from my department chair after my home sub-i, one from the chair/PD of my away rotation after august (not sure where that will be yet), and now I need to decide who to ask for my fourth letter (assuming we need 4 this cycle). 

Option 1: Pretty senior attending in the subspecialty I’m planning on going into, quite respected, mid/late career and I’ve worked with him a bit on research and clinical stuff but don’t have a super close relationship. Would expect a very solid LOR, but nothing too personal or overwhelmingly glowing

Option 2: slightly more junior attending (about 15 years more junior) in the same subspecialty, but a bit of a more niche career and not as well known. But have worked with him a ton clinically (clinic, scrub into a ton of cases with him all the time, etc) and have done more research with him that he has been very impressed with. I’m confident his LOR would be off the charts. 

Leaning towards option 2, but I keep hearing that seniority/hierarchy is everything in neurosurgery so just wanted to get your thoughts. I imagine many people are in similar situations so I hope this can be helpful to a bunch of us

[Guest]

Option 1. Always. I was in a similar boat as you and ultimately decided on getting the letter from the more senior attending. I don't think there was anything in my application that mattered more than the letter he wrote and the subsequent phone calls he made for me down the line come rank list time. Like you, I had worked with him a little bit less and had established a little less rapport with him than a more junior attending in the department, but it didn't matter. Senior attendings have been around the block long enough to know who is going to succeed regardless of how little time you spend with them. I would request a sit down meeting with them to talk about your career goals and to emphasize how much their support would mean in the application process before formally requesting the letter.

Option 2 "his LOR would be off the charts" is bullshit, sorry. PDs are going to sift through 400 other applications that look virtually identical to yours and don't have time to wade through anything other than the names written on the letters that are willing to vouch for you.

[Guest]

(04-07-2021, 01:42 AM)Guest Wrote: Option 1. Always. I was in a similar boat as you and ultimately decided on getting the letter from the more senior attending. I don't think there was anything in my application that mattered more than the letter he wrote and the subsequent phone calls he made for me down the line come rank list time. Like you, I had worked with him a little bit less and had established a little less rapport with him than a more junior attending in the department, but it didn't matter. Senior attendings have been around the block long enough to know who is going to succeed regardless of how little time you spend with them. I would request a sit down meeting with them to talk about your career goals and to emphasize how much their support would mean in the application process before formally requesting the letter.

Option 2 "his LOR would be off the charts" is bullshit, sorry. PDs are going to sift through 400 other applications that look virtually identical to yours and don't have time to wade through anything other than the names written on the letters that are willing to vouch for you.

Wouldn’t the status of the research year LOR-writer kind of carry the app in terms of phone calls/etc? Couldn’t it be nice to have a little extra enthusiasm/color in the application alongside that star power?

[Focus]

Ask them to cosign a letter written by junior attending.

[Guest]

(04-07-2021, 07:22 AM)Focus Wrote: Ask them to cosign a letter written by junior attending.

Woah game changer.. is that a common thing? Would definitely be the best of both worlds

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(04-07-2021, 07:22 AM)Focus Wrote: Ask them to cosign a letter written by junior attending.

Is this rude to the junior attending? i.e. 'your name doesn't have enough power for me to want a standalone letter from you'

And/or rude to the senior attending? i.e. 'I don't think you'll write me a good enough letter on your own so I'll just ask you to cosign a good one'

[Guest]

(04-07-2021, 02:11 PM)Guest Wrote:

(04-07-2021, 07:22 AM)Focus Wrote: Ask them to cosign a letter written by junior attending.

Woah game changer.. is that a common thing? Would definitely be the best of both worlds

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(04-07-2021, 07:22 AM)Focus Wrote: Ask them to cosign a letter written by junior attending.

Is this rude to the junior attending? i.e. 'your name doesn't have enough power for me to want a standalone letter from you'

And/or rude to the senior attending? i.e. 'I don't think you'll write me a good enough letter on your own so I'll just ask you to cosign a good one'

I agree with what you just said.
I would go with option 1. Most interviews are given based on stats and LORs from ppl the program knows well. All it needs to say we are considering this applicant for position- doesnt have to be stellar. A LOR from someone not well known i feel can only hurt you if its not stellar and wont have the same weight as option 1

[Guest]

It seems to be all about name recognition in neurosurgery

[Guest]

(04-07-2021, 03:57 PM)Guest Wrote: It seems to be all about name recognition in neurosurgery

Its just a big part of the equation when applying for residency(which is why most ppl do rotations at top institutions- most will end up not matching there), but not everything. Board scores, research, rotations, personality and interviews are also very important. If you love the field enough, you shouldnt let this prevent you from applying into neurosurgery

[Focus]

(04-07-2021, 02:11 PM)Guest Wrote:

(04-07-2021, 07:22 AM)Focus Wrote: Ask them to cosign a letter written by junior attending.

Woah game changer.. is that a common thing? Would definitely be the best of both worlds

---

(04-07-2021, 07:22 AM)Focus Wrote: Ask them to cosign a letter written by junior attending.

Is this rude to the junior attending? i.e. 'your name doesn't have enough power for me to want a standalone letter from you'

And/or rude to the senior attending? i.e. 'I don't think you'll write me a good enough letter on your own so I'll just ask you to cosign a good one'

If the junior guy wants you to succeed he or she will be okay with it because they want you to have the most support. The senior guy will be okay with it because he or she doesn't need to spend their valuable time on it. In short, it is not rare. Maybe 2 or 3 percent of letters I see are co signed by two attendings. Tell them the truth. You only have room for one more letter but would love both of their support

[Guest]

(04-07-2021, 04:13 PM)Focus Wrote:

(04-07-2021, 02:11 PM)Guest Wrote:

(04-07-2021, 07:22 AM)Focus Wrote: Ask them to cosign a letter written by junior attending.

Woah game changer.. is that a common thing? Would definitely be the best of both worlds

---

(04-07-2021, 07:22 AM)Focus Wrote: Ask them to cosign a letter written by junior attending.

Is this rude to the junior attending? i.e. 'your name doesn't have enough power for me to want a standalone letter from you'

And/or rude to the senior attending? i.e. 'I don't think you'll write me a good enough letter on your own so I'll just ask you to cosign a good one'

If the junior guy wants you to succeed he or she will be okay with it because they want you to have the most support. The senior guy will be okay with it because he or she doesn't need to spend their valuable time on it. In short, it is not rare. Maybe 2 or 3 percent of letters I see are co signed by two attendings. Tell them the truth. You only have room for one more letter but would love both of their support

Beautiful advice, this makes a lot of sense. Would you recommend broaching the topic with the Jr attending first?